keystring The music strikes me of having melody (with other voices) in the RH, accompaniment in the LH. Some music doesn't go that way.

Yep, that was my experience with Miracles, the music is not compartmentalized in each hand but forms across the hands, for me, that made it much harder to sightread.

keystring If you're a good sight reader, then it's all too easy to let the notes on the page flow into your fingers in a continuum.

I think this is my strength and weakness! It's a strength because it makes it easier to play and learn new music, but I have to force myself to stop and analyze the music.

      twocats Trying to memorize the first notes of each section away from the piano isn't working. I think creating the chunks and analyzing the structure of the piece is okay to do away from the piano, but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!

      I kept thinking about this after reading it yesterday. First thought was "Why would one?" 2nd thought was "How would one?" I supposed the "why" is probably in advice, maybe from the pianist video (admittedly I skipped through)

      For the "how" I was immediately back to what I wrote earlier - the overall musical form of the piece, the overview before starting. Having a map and having context. The first notes of a section. Your section will be in a key. Maybe it modulated - so the new key is being established - either through the I chord or the V chord. So if in your "broad map" of the piece, you know your now in the key of Bb your first chord might be Bb so the first notes might involve Bb, D, F - or the first chord is Eb so the first notes might be Eb G or (again) Bb. So - would the knowledge of what's going on in the music overall, the "place" of this section in particular - help you remember the first note of the section?

          twocats posted: Trying to memorize the first notes of each section away from the piano isn't working. I think creating the chunks and analyzing the structure of the piece is okay to do away from the piano, but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!

          keystring replied: I kept thinking about this after reading it yesterday. First thought was "Why would one?"

          Because a big part of memorization for virtually everyone is muscle memory. Additional methods are usually recommended because muscle memory by itself often is not enough.
          Even incredibly advanced and incredibly talented pianists usually have difficulty memorizing a score away from the piano. There is a Youtube video where Frederick Chiu Is teaching some young conservatory graduates some of which already had big pretty careers and has them attempt to memorize two pages of a Scarlatti Sonata away from the piano. Although these students were far better than most conservatory graduates, they all were unsuccessful.

            keystring So - would the knowledge of what's going on in the music overall, the "place" of this section in particular - help you remember the first note of the section?

            I'm trying very hard to use various strategies to memorize "properly"-- that is, not just relying on starting and then using muscle memory as I did as a kid. I want to have more awareness of what is happening in the music. Not sure if I'll actually memorize the modulation or chord that starts every section (as conservatory students or pros do) but for me, recognizing the bottom note and then how my hands sit on the keys helps.

              I have an odd time-travel experience spanning 35 years.
              I had a little organ, and then a piano as a child and teen. No instructions; no hearing any of the music played by anyone; only the solfege I wrote about. 35 years later I had a piano again for the first time. Some of what I had played almost 4 decades earlier was still there. One sequence was pure "muscle memory" plus 'hearing' it. I've played it as I played it then. I don't know what it actually is so I can't check tempo or anything. It's the tempo I used then. (adding: To get there I always have to start at the beginning of this sequence, because how I processed music back then.)

              https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4kwmv1spswynk1zbdtth6/25.03.28a-time-travel.mp3?rlkey=4dnofkdo7ftxelnuafrbkkgv2&st=4t530nzg&dl=0

              Btw, does anyone know what this is from? It has to be part of a sonatina because the book I had was of sonatinas. Mozart?

                keystring Btw, does anyone know what this is from? It has to be part of a sonatina because the book I had was of sonatinas. Mozart?

                It's Clementi! A lot of students end up playing this piece, I think I did (or else it was my sister) 😂 Edit: changed the link to a better performance

                I would say that the piece definitely became a part of you!

                    twocats It's Clementi! A lot of students end up playing this piece, I think I did (or else it was my sister) 😂 Edit: changed the link to a better performance

                    A lot of that book was indeed Clementi. Interesting that the tempo is close to the same. I did not know the tempo. I did not know about metronomes or what tempos meant. I was all on my own in a vacuum. I like that performance.

                    I am thinking now about approaches. I remember I loved that passage in particular, and it was also a chore to get - I think it's a transition that modulates to a new key so it wasn't as straightforward to a solfege-minded person. I want to get the score and see what I'd do with it now. I'd likely get it faster and it would be more secure. This is theory comes in, but not the dry stuff where you write in Roman Numerals as an exercise - but for seeing patterns. If I manage to get there, I'll share it here. (surgery in a few days).

                        @keystring cool that you remembered that! I'm always sort of fascinated by people who can play a piece or part of it, and they don't remember what it was. I've never experienced that.

                        Oh which reminds me, I think I mentioned above a piece I memorized, and I had submitted it to the 2009 PW ABF recital.

                        Well, the other day, I found the score, and I can play it because it's easy and the score is easy to read and I remember the music, but I definitely didn't have the piece in my fingers and it just felt like playing a piece I have listened to before but playing it for the first time.

                        IOW, my memory of that piece, as far as I can tell, is gone.

                        Interesting!

                          pianoloverus Because a big part of memorization for virtually everyone is muscle memory. Additional methods are usually recommended because muscle memory by itself often is not enough.
                          Even incredibly advanced and incredibly talented pianists usually have difficulty memorizing a score away from the piano.....

                          Pianoloverus, in the way you quoted, the quote mixes together a text I responded to, and then my own words. It looks as if I'm trying to remember those first notes. Are you able to edit/fix that?

                          You seem to be answering why people have trouble memorizing, period. That was not my question. It was why would one try, specifically, to memorize the first note of a section? I followed that up by saying if you do want to remember the first note of a section, if you know the broad structure of the music, this would help you remember what that first note is. I gave the example of a piece in F major - the likely first chord(s) which narrows us down to 3 notes to remember.

                          I don't think I'd try to memorize the first note of a section, unless there was a really good reason to do so. I would also want to be on top of the general structure and context to help me.

                              keystring it sounds great from doing it on your own! Good luck with your surgery and with re-learning this piece 🙂

                              ShiroKuro Well, the other day, I found the score, and I can play it because it's easy and the score is easy to read and I remember the music, but I definitely didn't have the piece in my fingers and it just felt like playing a piece I have listened to before but playing it for the first time.

                              I worked on Chopin Ballade 1 intensely for 1.5 years and then put it away for 6-7 years. When I pulled it back out, it was like I was reading it fresh (even the easy parts) and I was horrified, all that hard work gone! Thankfully it did start to recover from my long-term storage after the first try. I wonder if I had memorized if it would have stuck better.

                              Or I wonder if there's a big difference between learning something intensely as a child when your brain is still developing versus as an adult...

                              keystring I don't think I'd try to memorize the first note of a section, unless there was a really good reason to do so.

                              The idea is that you should be able to learn your piece in sections and be able to recall them standalone, to really solidify your memorization and confidence. Otherwise you start playing and are just relying on muscle memory to get you through the rest of the piece. If you have a memory glitch, you'd have to start from the beginning again and can't just recover from your last "save point" (to use a video game analogy 😜). Remembering the first notes of a section definitely helps me but you might have some other method to help you.

                                      twocats
                                      Or I wonder if there's a big difference between learning something intensely as a child when your brain is still developing versus as an adult...

                                      This certainly could be part of it, just going off of people I've seen who played piano as children, no longer play or have access to a piano, but can sit down and play one piece, from start to finish, at tempo etc., close to perfectly. And then they can't play anything else, can't sightread etc.... it's like that one piece is still in their brains and in their fingers, as easy as it is for me to sing the happy birthday song..... I wonder if anyone has studied that phenomenon.

                                          ShiroKuro I wonder if anyone has studied that phenomenon.

                                          I think it's known that kids are still developing their neural pathways and their brains are like a giant sponge, and it's harder to learn things later (like languages! Little kids can get extra languages "for free" if they're exposed to them!).

                                          I should talk to my friend (he's in his 40's) and see if his deep study helps the pieces stick after a few years of break. I expect that we can still get there, it just takes significantly more time and effort. After all, adults can still learn new skills!

                                            twocats it sounds great from doing it on your own! Good luck with your surgery and with re-learning this piece

                                            An interesting thing is that with the muscle & ear memory from now almost 50 years ago, there was also the physical memory embedded. I had to rework the passage a bit this morning to out the tense and awkward technique that the body also remembered. Originally there was the impetuous melodramatic rushing that my young self had done. I learned things like counting some 40 years later.

                                            I'd not want to relearn this piece. My Clementi days are long over. I loved it as a 12 year old with no instructor, but it is way too predictable, too diatonic. Even back then I was predicting what comes next before ever reading the next set of notes. This one for a change didn't have Alberti bass. I had a single book - the one on sonatinas - and much of it was Clementi and more Clementi.

                                            twocats The idea is that you should be able to learn your piece in sections and be able to recall them standalone, to really solidify your memorization and confidence.

                                            Yes, I get that. You have key spots (incl. the start of a section). I'm trying to give a helpful idea to that "first note" idea by suggesting that the overall structure of the piece may help you remember that first note. If the section is in F major, your first note might be a choice of F, A, or C (Tonic chord) or add Bb and D if it starts on the Dominant. The structure of the piece, and where the section fits into that structure, may help with that "first note". What do you think? 🙂

                                                  ShiroKuro cool that you remembered that! I'm always sort of fascinated by people who can play a piece or part of it, and they don't remember what it was. I've never experienced that.

                                                  Which reminds me of a funny story. After I retired I tutored for free at one of the top public high schools in New York City. It was around 70% Asian so many other students were taking piano lessons. If I asked them what piece they were playing they would often say something like waltz but they rarely knew the composer. And if I asked them what kind of piano they had, most common answer was ... black .

                                                    keystring I'm trying to give a helpful idea to that "first note" idea by suggesting that the overall structure of the piece may help you remember that first note. If the section is in F major, your first note might be a choice of F, A, or C (Tonic chord) or add Bb and D if it starts on the Dominant. The structure of the piece, and where the section fits into that structure, may help with that "first note". What do you think?

                                                    I think that sounds much more complicated than just memorizing "the first note in the RH in the 2nd section is A" 😃

                                                        pianoloverus I made an attempt to fix it as best I could.

                                                        Thank you for that. 🙂

                                                          keystring I had to rework the passage a bit this morning to out the tense and awkward technique that the body also remembered.

                                                          Wow, truly muscle memory in every sense!

                                                          keystring the overall structure of the piece may help you remember that first note. If the section is in F major, your first note might be a choice of F, A, or C (Tonic chord) or add Bb and D if it starts on the Dominant.

                                                          Oh gosh, that's too much thinking. I need to just be like "this is it" and start. I am capable of doing chord analysis but it's not immediate the way just "knowing the notes" is.

                                                                Before you can memorize a piece fully, you need to work out the finger sequences that are playable. As you practice a piece, you may find other fingerings possibilities easier than the ones you're using before. Robert Estrin did a video before on Chopin fingerings. On the score Chopin would write in exact fingerings he expected his students to follow. When LH & RH notes are close together, sometimes it's easier to play certain notes with the other hand than as written.

                                                                Memory can be referred to as remembering note sequences and finger sequences which is also part of muscle memory (letting your fingers play on autopilot without thinking about the notes).

                                                                ShiroKuro @keystring cool that you remembered that! I'm always sort of fascinated by people who can play a piece or part of it, and they don't remember what it was. I've never experienced that.

                                                                The reality of the time was a girl who had a piano, a handed down book of sonatas, no teaching, no model, no interaction with anyone regarding the music. There was no listening to music and saying "I'd like to learn to play this." and then you have to know what it's called. There was no reason to know the names of the things I played in those days. It was a different time and world.