@keystring cool that you remembered that! I'm always sort of fascinated by people who can play a piece or part of it, and they don't remember what it was. I've never experienced that.

Oh which reminds me, I think I mentioned above a piece I memorized, and I had submitted it to the 2009 PW ABF recital.

Well, the other day, I found the score, and I can play it because it's easy and the score is easy to read and I remember the music, but I definitely didn't have the piece in my fingers and it just felt like playing a piece I have listened to before but playing it for the first time.

IOW, my memory of that piece, as far as I can tell, is gone.

Interesting!

    pianoloverus Because a big part of memorization for virtually everyone is muscle memory. Additional methods are usually recommended because muscle memory by itself often is not enough.
    Even incredibly advanced and incredibly talented pianists usually have difficulty memorizing a score away from the piano.....

    Pianoloverus, in the way you quoted, the quote mixes together a text I responded to, and then my own words. It looks as if I'm trying to remember those first notes. Are you able to edit/fix that?

    You seem to be answering why people have trouble memorizing, period. That was not my question. It was why would one try, specifically, to memorize the first note of a section? I followed that up by saying if you do want to remember the first note of a section, if you know the broad structure of the music, this would help you remember what that first note is. I gave the example of a piece in F major - the likely first chord(s) which narrows us down to 3 notes to remember.

    I don't think I'd try to memorize the first note of a section, unless there was a really good reason to do so. I would also want to be on top of the general structure and context to help me.

        keystring it sounds great from doing it on your own! Good luck with your surgery and with re-learning this piece 🙂

        ShiroKuro Well, the other day, I found the score, and I can play it because it's easy and the score is easy to read and I remember the music, but I definitely didn't have the piece in my fingers and it just felt like playing a piece I have listened to before but playing it for the first time.

        I worked on Chopin Ballade 1 intensely for 1.5 years and then put it away for 6-7 years. When I pulled it back out, it was like I was reading it fresh (even the easy parts) and I was horrified, all that hard work gone! Thankfully it did start to recover from my long-term storage after the first try. I wonder if I had memorized if it would have stuck better.

        Or I wonder if there's a big difference between learning something intensely as a child when your brain is still developing versus as an adult...

        keystring I don't think I'd try to memorize the first note of a section, unless there was a really good reason to do so.

        The idea is that you should be able to learn your piece in sections and be able to recall them standalone, to really solidify your memorization and confidence. Otherwise you start playing and are just relying on muscle memory to get you through the rest of the piece. If you have a memory glitch, you'd have to start from the beginning again and can't just recover from your last "save point" (to use a video game analogy 😜). Remembering the first notes of a section definitely helps me but you might have some other method to help you.

                twocats
                Or I wonder if there's a big difference between learning something intensely as a child when your brain is still developing versus as an adult...

                This certainly could be part of it, just going off of people I've seen who played piano as children, no longer play or have access to a piano, but can sit down and play one piece, from start to finish, at tempo etc., close to perfectly. And then they can't play anything else, can't sightread etc.... it's like that one piece is still in their brains and in their fingers, as easy as it is for me to sing the happy birthday song..... I wonder if anyone has studied that phenomenon.

                    ShiroKuro I wonder if anyone has studied that phenomenon.

                    I think it's known that kids are still developing their neural pathways and their brains are like a giant sponge, and it's harder to learn things later (like languages! Little kids can get extra languages "for free" if they're exposed to them!).

                    I should talk to my friend (he's in his 40's) and see if his deep study helps the pieces stick after a few years of break. I expect that we can still get there, it just takes significantly more time and effort. After all, adults can still learn new skills!

                      twocats it sounds great from doing it on your own! Good luck with your surgery and with re-learning this piece

                      An interesting thing is that with the muscle & ear memory from now almost 50 years ago, there was also the physical memory embedded. I had to rework the passage a bit this morning to out the tense and awkward technique that the body also remembered. Originally there was the impetuous melodramatic rushing that my young self had done. I learned things like counting some 40 years later.

                      I'd not want to relearn this piece. My Clementi days are long over. I loved it as a 12 year old with no instructor, but it is way too predictable, too diatonic. Even back then I was predicting what comes next before ever reading the next set of notes. This one for a change didn't have Alberti bass. I had a single book - the one on sonatinas - and much of it was Clementi and more Clementi.

                      twocats The idea is that you should be able to learn your piece in sections and be able to recall them standalone, to really solidify your memorization and confidence.

                      Yes, I get that. You have key spots (incl. the start of a section). I'm trying to give a helpful idea to that "first note" idea by suggesting that the overall structure of the piece may help you remember that first note. If the section is in F major, your first note might be a choice of F, A, or C (Tonic chord) or add Bb and D if it starts on the Dominant. The structure of the piece, and where the section fits into that structure, may help with that "first note". What do you think? 🙂

                            ShiroKuro cool that you remembered that! I'm always sort of fascinated by people who can play a piece or part of it, and they don't remember what it was. I've never experienced that.

                            Which reminds me of a funny story. After I retired I tutored for free at one of the top public high schools in New York City. It was around 70% Asian so many other students were taking piano lessons. If I asked them what piece they were playing they would often say something like waltz but they rarely knew the composer. And if I asked them what kind of piano they had, most common answer was ... black .

                              keystring I'm trying to give a helpful idea to that "first note" idea by suggesting that the overall structure of the piece may help you remember that first note. If the section is in F major, your first note might be a choice of F, A, or C (Tonic chord) or add Bb and D if it starts on the Dominant. The structure of the piece, and where the section fits into that structure, may help with that "first note". What do you think?

                              I think that sounds much more complicated than just memorizing "the first note in the RH in the 2nd section is A" 😃

                                  pianoloverus I made an attempt to fix it as best I could.

                                  Thank you for that. 🙂

                                    keystring I had to rework the passage a bit this morning to out the tense and awkward technique that the body also remembered.

                                    Wow, truly muscle memory in every sense!

                                    keystring the overall structure of the piece may help you remember that first note. If the section is in F major, your first note might be a choice of F, A, or C (Tonic chord) or add Bb and D if it starts on the Dominant.

                                    Oh gosh, that's too much thinking. I need to just be like "this is it" and start. I am capable of doing chord analysis but it's not immediate the way just "knowing the notes" is.

                                          Before you can memorize a piece fully, you need to work out the finger sequences that are playable. As you practice a piece, you may find other fingerings possibilities easier than the ones you're using before. Robert Estrin did a video before on Chopin fingerings. On the score Chopin would write in exact fingerings he expected his students to follow. When LH & RH notes are close together, sometimes it's easier to play certain notes with the other hand than as written.

                                          Memory can be referred to as remembering note sequences and finger sequences which is also part of muscle memory (letting your fingers play on autopilot without thinking about the notes).

                                          ShiroKuro @keystring cool that you remembered that! I'm always sort of fascinated by people who can play a piece or part of it, and they don't remember what it was. I've never experienced that.

                                          The reality of the time was a girl who had a piano, a handed down book of sonatas, no teaching, no model, no interaction with anyone regarding the music. There was no listening to music and saying "I'd like to learn to play this." and then you have to know what it's called. There was no reason to know the names of the things I played in those days. It was a different time and world.

                                            ShiroKuro I think that sounds much more complicated than just memorizing "the first note in the RH in the 2nd section is A"

                                            twocats Oh gosh, that's too much thinking. I need to just be like "this is it" and start. I am capable of doing chord analysis but it's not immediate the way just "knowing the notes" is.

                                            You both wrote something similar. I've ended up with questions.

                                            That is - it may be that I wrote of something simple in a complicated way. Like describing how walking is done, making it seem impossible, when in fact everyone walks.

                                            So - When you guys start a piece of music, do you first look over the whole thing before starting, see what key it's in, see for example that it might have an ABA pattern (middle is different, start and end are the same)? Like for simple music it might be in C major, the middle is in G major, the last part is in C major again. Do you do that - is it taught to do that? (As opposed to theory exercises being done as some kind of extra thing apart from working on music you play.)

                                            Like, if my piece is in C major, then I expect it to start with the notes of a C chord or a G chord. I'd be very surprised to find an F# or Eb. This isn't analysis - it's things we expect. Is there none of that?

                                            For memorizing music, I took it for granted that getting a handle of the basic shape and various patterns would be part of the process, which would help with it. There is working out the details, in small sections, but there is also the broad outline (I thought). If that's not done, might it be a thing that would help with memorizing music?

                                            Mostly I'm full of question marks.


                                                  keystring So - When you guys start a piece of music, do you first look over the whole thing before starting, see what key it's in, see for example that it might have an ABA pattern (middle is different, start and end are the same)?

                                                  Nope, I sit down and start playing. Usually I'm familiar with how the piece goes but I don't analyze it in any way. Sometimes I start in the wrong key signature because I was just playing something with a different key signature and then I have to go back and look! Usually during the initial reading process I figure out my fingerings and make my musical decisions but the reading itself is very brainless. And then I practice to get it into my muscle memory.

                                                  keystring For memorizing music, I took it for granted that getting a handle of the basic shape and various patterns would be part of the process, which would help with it. There is working out the details, in small sections, but there is also the broad outline (I thought). If that's not done, might it be a thing that would help with memorizing music?

                                                  Yes, this is a good way to approach memorizing music! I've never done it in the past but I actually made the effort to do it with the piece I'm trying to memorize.

                                                      Hi keystring

                                                      I do what you're describing, pretty much all the time. I'm always looking for short cuts! But in my case it's not for memorising as I don't do that with classical (anymore). For me it's a way of making the reading easier.

                                                      So check the key signature and then if it's music with any substantial amount of chords in it I may pencil some of the complicated chord names. I read the notes virtually instantaneously if I know the chord (as I described to ShiroKuro in a post a while back). In fact sometimes I'll pencil in technically incorrect chords, just because I find that easier to read. I.e. an Eb9 rather than D#9.

                                                      For me it's not analysis, I just do it automatically when there's sheet music in front of me. If there's ever more than 2 written notes on the page my brain converts them to chords. I've no doubt there are things about this that purists would hate, but my reading would be substantially slower if I didn't do it, and if I was memorising that would also be slower.

                                                      As I said in a previous post there is an analogy with letters and words. You don't read the individual letters, you read the words. For me notes and chords work in the same way.

                                                      Anyway probably off track here, so I'll stop now.

                                                      Cheers

                                                      Simon
                                                      All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                                                      Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                                                          keystring it may be that I wrote of something simple in a complicated way. Like describing how walking is done, making it seem impossible, when in fact everyone walks.

                                                          I love this as an example of explaining something simple in a complicated way! (It’s also an elegant example because, while yes, everyone does it, in fact, the mechanics of walking are anything but simple! 😃

                                                          So - When you guys start a piece of music, do you first look over the whole thing before starting, see what key it's in, see for example that it might have an ABA pattern (middle is different, start and end are the same)? Like for simple music it might be in C major, the middle is in G major, the last part is in C major again. Do you do that

                                                          Nope, I never do that. 😆 I look at the key signature, note the number of flats or sharps… sometimes (but not always) I will play them (i.e., I literally play F#, C#, G# first with the RH and then with the LH), esp. if I was just practicing a piece in a different key signature and I want to reset my brain. And then I start in on the piece. That’s it. Depending on the music, and on what kinds of practice strategies I’m employing, I might look through the music to find the most difficult section and start there (I used to do this religiously, but I’ve mellowed in recent years and I tend to just start at the beginning these days). But even this is not looking through the score to understand the structure of the piece. Although I do learn the structure as I read-play through it…

                                                          • is it taught to do that?

                                                          I am sure some people teach that… but you know, an interesting thing about my experience of piano lessons is that I had already taught myself to read both clefs before I started lesson, and I’m such a good reader, I think none of the teachers I’ve ever had have considered I might need some guidance regarding looking at a score…

                                                          Like, if my piece is in C major, then I expect it to start with the notes of a C chord or a G chord. I'd be very surprised to find an F# or Eb. This isn't analysis - it's things we expect. Is there none of that?

                                                          Nope, I don’t have those expectations. I don’t even look through the piece to check signature changes, key sig changes… I just read, taking comfort from the fact that I will discover those things when they occur.

                                                              Simonb As I said in a previous post there is an analogy with letters and words. You don't read the individual letters, you read the words. For me notes and chords work in the same way.

                                                              Are you explicitly aware of chord names when you do this?

                                                              Because, when I see a note, or groups of notes, I can look at the page and plop my hands down on those keys instantly. But I am not thinking “C” or chord names…

                                                              Over the course of this thread, I’m starting to think that my experience of sightreading and playing must be primarily visual/spatial… like “that note there is this key here.” And never “that D in the treble clef is the D key here on the keyboard two octaves above middle C” or whatever…

                                                              Obviously no one who reads with any fluency is saying that in their heads, but what I mean is that most of the time, I am not consciously aware of a note-name when I’m playing or when I’m reading.

                                                              If I habitually make a mistake or regularly play something wrong, I might write the note-name on the score… And then recently, I’ve been making it a point to work on music with more chords. So one of the pieces I’m learning right now has a bunch of four-note chords in them. And I have done more “chord analysis” type things with that, though not true chord analysis. But for example, I explicitly look at the chords and make a note of “ok, from this chord to the next, it moves down a whole step… and here these three chords in a row have in common the inner note, which is an F#”

                                                              I’m not naming those chords (like Greg N in the video, my reaction is “I don’t care” 😅 ) but I am doing a more “alphabet-based” reading than I normally do…

                                                                  I think it’s interesting that there are so many similar things in the way @twocats and I “read” the score…

                                                                  It makes me suspect that if we did a study on “habitual readers” versus “habitual memorizers,” we might find these tendencies or learning patterns in each group….

                                                                    ShiroKuro Are you explicitly aware of chord names when you do this?

                                                                    Because, when I see a note, or groups of notes, I can look at the page and plop my hands down on those keys instantly. But I am not thinking “C” or chord names…

                                                                    Over the course of this thread, I’m stating to think that my experience of sightreading and playing must be primarily visual/spatial… like “that note there is this key here.” And never “that D in the treble clef is the D key here on the keyboard two octaves above middle C” or whatever…

                                                                    I always write chord names in my scores, as long as they're chords I can understand, not something like B♭m(maj13). It is a tremendous help. Obviously, for me chords are nothing like words that I can read in a single glance. But switching between looking at my keyboard and looking at the notes, the chord names help a lot. For instance, I play sex arpeggio-like structures, and the two first ones are based on C, and conveniently start on the note C, and then they change to G, and start on the note D. Seeing this G written in my score helps reminding me that I should not start on C again, but on D.

                                                                    Sometimes I spontaneously memorise the score, and if there are chords or arpeggios, the chord names really help me to remember the sequence of what to play when.

                                                                    *
                                                                    ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...