twocats I think most people would say that playing the music to memorize it would involve muscle memory, aural memory, and visual memory but different people would use different amounts of those three.

I think in addition also memorizing "in this section it starts with B-flat on the lower note". I don't know what to call that, informational memory?

I don't think many people are concerned with memorizing notes that begin some section as opposed to any other notes. They might be concerned with memorizing certain specific notes that are tricky for some reason or notes in passages that are almost like other passages but different in some detail. For example, in the Chopin Waltz in C sharp minor B section The same passage repeats twice but with very slight differences in the notes so one might be forced to memorize those differences . I don't think there's any special name for memorizing specific notes, and I've never even seen that idea mentioned in articles about memorization or books where a pianist discusses their personalmemorization techniques.

      pianoloverus it's a memory assist, just because you don't use it doesn't mean that no one else does...

          twocats it's a memory assist,

          Isn't that something Greg N. described in his video?

          Anyway, it makes a lot of sense to me to use as another assist, as you say.

              Stub So what kind of memory does that fall under? Muscle (finger) memory? Aural? Visual?

              For me aural and visual. And from there I can use muscle memory. When it's a piece I play often it's more visual, when I didn't play it in a while it's more aural.

                ShiroKuro Isn't that something Greg N. described in his video?

                I can't remember! I didn't pay super close attention to the video and was doing my physical therapy exercises at the same time 🙂

                  pianoloverus

                  Because I learn pieces in sections, and when practicing I don't play them in the correct order I memorize on which note each section and each phrase starts automatically.

                    twocats
                    You're right that generalization is not good.
                    Of course there are different factors that makes a piece easy or hard. Remembering the notes is 1 thing but the actual playing we need to understand the hand mechanics such as which fingers are weak/strong, which ones are shorter/longer, hands relaxation especially playing fast pieces. Otherwise some pieces are not very playable.

                    I've never got into pieces at the ABRSM-10 level. There are 2 popular student pieces including Bach "Prelude in C" from WTC Book 1 & Satie "Gymnopedie 1". After a Google search found both rated between level 5 & 6. Both are challenging in their own way. The Prelude with just repeated chord arpeggios is much more manageable. Once you get the basic idea of holding the 2 bass notes and playng 6 notes on top, the rest is just repetition. Gymnopedie requires big jumps that are similar. After learning to do 1 jump with the help of the sustain pedal to fill in the gap, the other jumps are similar. Don't usually find remembering the notes a big issue.

                    A few years ago I watched a man play Nocturne Op 9 No 2 on a public piano. He played quite well with the sheet despite some hesitations that were not very noticeable. A piece like this is rated around level 8. How easy would it be to memorize something like this? And there are much longer pieces lasting for 10 minutes or more like a movement out of a Rachmaninov concerto that an average student wouldn't be playing.

                    A while ago I learned the first movement of Bach Italian Concerto in F just under 4 minutes. Went to a gathering and played it from memory. Good enough to delight some people in the room. 2 years ago I searched online for a piano arrangement of the "Sinfonia" from Bach Christmas Oratorio #2 but nothing satisfactory came up. The original is an ensemble piece with 8 parts played with flutes, strings & oboes. Ended up with my own arrangement and learned to play from memory for 6 minutes in an Andante tempo. A piece that was not originally written for piano and included in an ABRSM /RCM repertoire book doesn't have a rating.

                      I've been thinking about the video by the pianist that's featured near the start of this thread - what it has, doesn't have, and implied things.

                      • He does RH, then LH, in small chunks and explains why. The music strikes me of having melody (with other voices) in the RH, accompaniment in the LH. Some music doesn't go that way. I see it for this kind.

                      • He seems to "own" theory - i.e. he knows it's in F major, names and recognizes chords. (can't do what he does if you don't have this; but maybe your own associations). He recognizes / hears main patterns like melody and uses that.

                      • Where he plays a small passage with the page open, then covered - then the "forget" by diddling other notes randomly, and back, this makes sense.

                      • At one point he identifies a chord in the RH, says if you include the LH you get a different chord but ignore that; I'm iffy. Supposing your chord (key of F major) is C7b9 - the RH by itself is EGBbDb so Edim7. Is it easier to remember Edim7=>F, or C7b9=>F (the V7 I pattern). But I've done that myself, when the RH chords formed their own pattern if I ignored the real chord(s).

                      • One thing I see missing is looking at the whole piece before starting this. Music has a broad form. Like sonata allegro with theme 1, theme 2, dominant key, back to tonic - Development fiddling with themes - Recap. You have sequences that do the same thing, each time a few notes lower. For memorizing, this is your broad map, like a road trip with broad destinations outlined. Maybe he does this, but it's not mentioned in the video. Or he does a mental perusal which is left out.

                      • Time, stages. Our memory works well when we mindfully go at something; let go; come back to it; let go; come back to it. Some of this would be Mollyish.

                      • One element that we might overlook, is the fact that by looking at small chunks, actively listening, looking for, and feeling patterns in the music, verbalizing them - he is being mindful of what he is doing. If you're a good sight reader, then it's all too easy to let the notes on the page flow into your fingers in a continuum. Did you know you were playing a C7 chord going to F with the 3rd dancing around and resolving to the Tonic note - and relate that to sound, touch, and piano keys?

                      There are other good suggestions here, esp. the pulling in of other aspects of playing; physical, audial, etc. This thread has been a good reminder of things that I've meant to work on. It's a fantastic thread. 🙂

                      (Edit: Hey cool - this site turns dashes into sophisticated looking bullet points. 😃 )

                        keystring The music strikes me of having melody (with other voices) in the RH, accompaniment in the LH. Some music doesn't go that way.

                        Yep, that was my experience with Miracles, the music is not compartmentalized in each hand but forms across the hands, for me, that made it much harder to sightread.

                        keystring If you're a good sight reader, then it's all too easy to let the notes on the page flow into your fingers in a continuum.

                        I think this is my strength and weakness! It's a strength because it makes it easier to play and learn new music, but I have to force myself to stop and analyze the music.

                            twocats Trying to memorize the first notes of each section away from the piano isn't working. I think creating the chunks and analyzing the structure of the piece is okay to do away from the piano, but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!

                            I kept thinking about this after reading it yesterday. First thought was "Why would one?" 2nd thought was "How would one?" I supposed the "why" is probably in advice, maybe from the pianist video (admittedly I skipped through)

                            For the "how" I was immediately back to what I wrote earlier - the overall musical form of the piece, the overview before starting. Having a map and having context. The first notes of a section. Your section will be in a key. Maybe it modulated - so the new key is being established - either through the I chord or the V chord. So if in your "broad map" of the piece, you know your now in the key of Bb your first chord might be Bb so the first notes might involve Bb, D, F - or the first chord is Eb so the first notes might be Eb G or (again) Bb. So - would the knowledge of what's going on in the music overall, the "place" of this section in particular - help you remember the first note of the section?

                                twocats posted: Trying to memorize the first notes of each section away from the piano isn't working. I think creating the chunks and analyzing the structure of the piece is okay to do away from the piano, but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!

                                keystring replied: I kept thinking about this after reading it yesterday. First thought was "Why would one?"

                                Because a big part of memorization for virtually everyone is muscle memory. Additional methods are usually recommended because muscle memory by itself often is not enough.
                                Even incredibly advanced and incredibly talented pianists usually have difficulty memorizing a score away from the piano. There is a Youtube video where Frederick Chiu Is teaching some young conservatory graduates some of which already had big pretty careers and has them attempt to memorize two pages of a Scarlatti Sonata away from the piano. Although these students were far better than most conservatory graduates, they all were unsuccessful.

                                  keystring So - would the knowledge of what's going on in the music overall, the "place" of this section in particular - help you remember the first note of the section?

                                  I'm trying very hard to use various strategies to memorize "properly"-- that is, not just relying on starting and then using muscle memory as I did as a kid. I want to have more awareness of what is happening in the music. Not sure if I'll actually memorize the modulation or chord that starts every section (as conservatory students or pros do) but for me, recognizing the bottom note and then how my hands sit on the keys helps.

                                    I have an odd time-travel experience spanning 35 years.
                                    I had a little organ, and then a piano as a child and teen. No instructions; no hearing any of the music played by anyone; only the solfege I wrote about. 35 years later I had a piano again for the first time. Some of what I had played almost 4 decades earlier was still there. One sequence was pure "muscle memory" plus 'hearing' it. I've played it as I played it then. I don't know what it actually is so I can't check tempo or anything. It's the tempo I used then. (adding: To get there I always have to start at the beginning of this sequence, because how I processed music back then.)

                                    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4kwmv1spswynk1zbdtth6/25.03.28a-time-travel.mp3?rlkey=4dnofkdo7ftxelnuafrbkkgv2&st=4t530nzg&dl=0

                                    Btw, does anyone know what this is from? It has to be part of a sonatina because the book I had was of sonatinas. Mozart?

                                      keystring Btw, does anyone know what this is from? It has to be part of a sonatina because the book I had was of sonatinas. Mozart?

                                      It's Clementi! A lot of students end up playing this piece, I think I did (or else it was my sister) 😂 Edit: changed the link to a better performance

                                      I would say that the piece definitely became a part of you!

                                          twocats It's Clementi! A lot of students end up playing this piece, I think I did (or else it was my sister) 😂 Edit: changed the link to a better performance

                                          A lot of that book was indeed Clementi. Interesting that the tempo is close to the same. I did not know the tempo. I did not know about metronomes or what tempos meant. I was all on my own in a vacuum. I like that performance.

                                          I am thinking now about approaches. I remember I loved that passage in particular, and it was also a chore to get - I think it's a transition that modulates to a new key so it wasn't as straightforward to a solfege-minded person. I want to get the score and see what I'd do with it now. I'd likely get it faster and it would be more secure. This is theory comes in, but not the dry stuff where you write in Roman Numerals as an exercise - but for seeing patterns. If I manage to get there, I'll share it here. (surgery in a few days).

                                              @keystring cool that you remembered that! I'm always sort of fascinated by people who can play a piece or part of it, and they don't remember what it was. I've never experienced that.

                                              Oh which reminds me, I think I mentioned above a piece I memorized, and I had submitted it to the 2009 PW ABF recital.

                                              Well, the other day, I found the score, and I can play it because it's easy and the score is easy to read and I remember the music, but I definitely didn't have the piece in my fingers and it just felt like playing a piece I have listened to before but playing it for the first time.

                                              IOW, my memory of that piece, as far as I can tell, is gone.

                                              Interesting!

                                                pianoloverus Because a big part of memorization for virtually everyone is muscle memory. Additional methods are usually recommended because muscle memory by itself often is not enough.
                                                Even incredibly advanced and incredibly talented pianists usually have difficulty memorizing a score away from the piano.....

                                                Pianoloverus, in the way you quoted, the quote mixes together a text I responded to, and then my own words. It looks as if I'm trying to remember those first notes. Are you able to edit/fix that?

                                                You seem to be answering why people have trouble memorizing, period. That was not my question. It was why would one try, specifically, to memorize the first note of a section? I followed that up by saying if you do want to remember the first note of a section, if you know the broad structure of the music, this would help you remember what that first note is. I gave the example of a piece in F major - the likely first chord(s) which narrows us down to 3 notes to remember.

                                                I don't think I'd try to memorize the first note of a section, unless there was a really good reason to do so. I would also want to be on top of the general structure and context to help me.

                                                    keystring it sounds great from doing it on your own! Good luck with your surgery and with re-learning this piece 🙂

                                                    ShiroKuro Well, the other day, I found the score, and I can play it because it's easy and the score is easy to read and I remember the music, but I definitely didn't have the piece in my fingers and it just felt like playing a piece I have listened to before but playing it for the first time.

                                                    I worked on Chopin Ballade 1 intensely for 1.5 years and then put it away for 6-7 years. When I pulled it back out, it was like I was reading it fresh (even the easy parts) and I was horrified, all that hard work gone! Thankfully it did start to recover from my long-term storage after the first try. I wonder if I had memorized if it would have stuck better.

                                                    Or I wonder if there's a big difference between learning something intensely as a child when your brain is still developing versus as an adult...

                                                    keystring I don't think I'd try to memorize the first note of a section, unless there was a really good reason to do so.

                                                    The idea is that you should be able to learn your piece in sections and be able to recall them standalone, to really solidify your memorization and confidence. Otherwise you start playing and are just relying on muscle memory to get you through the rest of the piece. If you have a memory glitch, you'd have to start from the beginning again and can't just recover from your last "save point" (to use a video game analogy 😜). Remembering the first notes of a section definitely helps me but you might have some other method to help you.

                                                            twocats
                                                            Or I wonder if there's a big difference between learning something intensely as a child when your brain is still developing versus as an adult...

                                                            This certainly could be part of it, just going off of people I've seen who played piano as children, no longer play or have access to a piano, but can sit down and play one piece, from start to finish, at tempo etc., close to perfectly. And then they can't play anything else, can't sightread etc.... it's like that one piece is still in their brains and in their fingers, as easy as it is for me to sing the happy birthday song..... I wonder if anyone has studied that phenomenon.

                                                                ShiroKuro I wonder if anyone has studied that phenomenon.

                                                                I think it's known that kids are still developing their neural pathways and their brains are like a giant sponge, and it's harder to learn things later (like languages! Little kids can get extra languages "for free" if they're exposed to them!).

                                                                I should talk to my friend (he's in his 40's) and see if his deep study helps the pieces stick after a few years of break. I expect that we can still get there, it just takes significantly more time and effort. After all, adults can still learn new skills!