I just realized that I shouldn't have put this thread in the Learner's Lounge. I thought the topic was about "learning" but reading the description that area is for beginner to intermediate players and this topic is probably better suited for the Pianist Zone, so I'll move it!
twocats I just realized that I shouldn't have put this thread in the Learner's Lounge. I thought the topic was about "learning" but reading the description that area is for beginner to intermediate players and this topic is probably better suited for the Pianist Zone, so I'll move it!
I disagree. It is about learning and is an aspect of learning. The same principles that apply to an advanced pianist are ones needed at earlier and even very simple levels.
pianoloverus And also depends on how secure you want the memorization to be. It's one thing to memorize a piece that you play just for yourself or for your teacher where a memory slip is not going to be so important versus memorizing a piece that you will perform in front of a lot of people In a recital or competition.
This is also a really good point! I have never played in a competition, and the only pieces I memorized for recitals were a long time ago when I was playing beginner level music.... I think I mentioned above that the last time I had a few memorized pieces was when I was piano shopping, and I did that so I could audition pianos with the memorized pieces. Well, to me, playing in a piano shop is at the level of playing for a teacher, or maybe even less. Actually I was surprised to realize that I was not nervous at all when I was playing while piano shopping. I guess I knew that I was the customer, and I had money to spend. So it was a very different dynamic.
All that to say that I personally have never experienced playing an intermediate or above piece from memory in a high-pressure situation.
And I probably never will! 
I certainly will be playing from the score when I play my two pieces at the recital next month! 
twocats If you look at the description of the tags, "Learner's Lounge" is specifically targeted to beginner to intermediate players. "Pianist Zone" is general piano discussion topics.
I understand. The topic is also relevant to beginner and intermediate.
I may start a parallel thread in the "learner lounge" and maybe refer back to this one. Most of the principles are pertinent and important. I also don't see the "learner lounge" as such categories. There was a problem in PW because of the "adult beginner" name, which did not fit a lot of people. We were "learners". I saw the "pianist" area as one where advanced pianists did advanced things. There are skills pertinent to all levels, which are more on the level of "learning" as opposed to how to play or interpret this advanced piece of music.
twocats I don't disagree. But I'm getting comments from a beginner assuming that I'm a beginner too... so I think the discussion is better suited for Pianist Zone. Everyone can follow there if they would like.
Got it - that would be perturbing. 
This gives me an extra reason to bring the topic back there, with a cross-link here. Because of my own things, I discovered that many "foundations" that should be taught at the early level, get skipped. Those foundations create a magic in advanced levels if you are missing any of them, with a sudden surge forward at times - because you'll have the other stuff. That other stuff is missing support, or is distorted because of missing elements.
In a sense, the foundational things are advanced. Some of what should be taught at the "beginner" level are not at all simple or easy, and they are also zipped right past. I can't express it better than that atm.
keystring This gives me an extra reason to bring the topic back there, with a cross-link here.
Off topic but I look at PT on my phone so the "All Discussions" tab is the easiest way to view new posts, and I see all threads regardless of how they're tagged. I think computer users tend to only look at the subforums of interest, so they only see the posts tagged there.
Thanks for the tip. The "All Discussions" tab works on my desktop as well. Just tried it. Thx.
twocats Back to studying away from the piano
Trying to memorize the first notes of each section away from the piano isn't working. I think creating the chunks and analyzing the structure of the piece is okay to do away from the piano, but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!
Now I started on the "B" Presto part (which I've been working on periodically over the past few years)-- memorizing and not looking at the page at a fast and complicated sequence is definitely making it easier to play
twocats Off topic but I look at PT on my phone so the "All Discussions" tab is the easiest way to view new posts, and I see all threads regardless of how they're tagged. I think computer users tend to only look at the subforums of interest, so they only see the posts tagged there.
A little bit more off-topic chatter--I read PT on my laptop and always hit the "All Discussions" tab. That is much, much easier than going through each sub-forum. Sometimes it's obvious which sub-forum a discussion is in, but for the most part, I have no idea where most discussions are located.
twocats but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!
So what kind of memory does that fall under? Muscle (finger) memory? Aural? Visual?
As has been mentioned, memorizing a difficult section can be quite helpful. I certainly find myself doing that. I think it is most helpful when big jumps and/or big chords are involved. If I had perfect kinesthetic knowledge of the piano keyboard, I wouldn't need to look at the keyboard--in theory, at least.
Stub So what kind of memory does that fall under? Muscle (finger) memory? Aural? Visual?
My aural ability is terrible 
I can recognize when I've hit an obvious wrong note but it doesn't help me find the right one. (My dad used to sing the correct note if my sister or I made a mistake-- it was not helpful!!)
I think being able to start playing the sections standalone is visual (for me) for sure, seeing where my hands are on the keys. But also remembering that the lower note is a B-flat and how my hands look and the intervals that are there. The finger memory is what's activated after I play those first notes and continue.
Stub but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!
So what kind of memory does that fall under? Muscle (finger) memory? Aural? Visual?
I think most people would say that playing the music to memorize it would involve muscle memory, aural memory, and visual memory but different people would use different amounts of those three.
pianoloverus I think most people would say that playing the music to memorize it would involve muscle memory, aural memory, and visual memory but different people would use different amounts of those three.
I think in addition also memorizing "in this section it starts with B-flat on the lower note". I don't know what to call that, informational memory?
twocats I think most people would say that playing the music to memorize it would involve muscle memory, aural memory, and visual memory but different people would use different amounts of those three.
I think in addition also memorizing "in this section it starts with B-flat on the lower note". I don't know what to call that, informational memory?
I don't think many people are concerned with memorizing notes that begin some section as opposed to any other notes. They might be concerned with memorizing certain specific notes that are tricky for some reason or notes in passages that are almost like other passages but different in some detail. For example, in the Chopin Waltz in C sharp minor B section The same passage repeats twice but with very slight differences in the notes so one might be forced to memorize those differences . I don't think there's any special name for memorizing specific notes, and I've never even seen that idea mentioned in articles about memorization or books where a pianist discusses their personalmemorization techniques.
pianoloverus it's a memory assist, just because you don't use it doesn't mean that no one else does...
