twocats If you look at the description of the tags, "Learner's Lounge" is specifically targeted to beginner to intermediate players. "Pianist Zone" is general piano discussion topics.

I understand. The topic is also relevant to beginner and intermediate.

I may start a parallel thread in the "learner lounge" and maybe refer back to this one. Most of the principles are pertinent and important. I also don't see the "learner lounge" as such categories. There was a problem in PW because of the "adult beginner" name, which did not fit a lot of people. We were "learners". I saw the "pianist" area as one where advanced pianists did advanced things. There are skills pertinent to all levels, which are more on the level of "learning" as opposed to how to play or interpret this advanced piece of music.

      keystring The topic is also relevant to beginner and intermediate.

      I don't disagree. But I'm getting comments from a beginner assuming that I'm a beginner too... so I think the discussion is better suited for Pianist Zone. Everyone can follow there if they would like.

          twocats I don't disagree. But I'm getting comments from a beginner assuming that I'm a beginner too... so I think the discussion is better suited for Pianist Zone. Everyone can follow there if they would like.

          Got it - that would be perturbing. 😚

          This gives me an extra reason to bring the topic back there, with a cross-link here. Because of my own things, I discovered that many "foundations" that should be taught at the early level, get skipped. Those foundations create a magic in advanced levels if you are missing any of them, with a sudden surge forward at times - because you'll have the other stuff. That other stuff is missing support, or is distorted because of missing elements.

          In a sense, the foundational things are advanced. Some of what should be taught at the "beginner" level are not at all simple or easy, and they are also zipped right past. I can't express it better than that atm.

              keystring This gives me an extra reason to bring the topic back there, with a cross-link here.

              Off topic but I look at PT on my phone so the "All Discussions" tab is the easiest way to view new posts, and I see all threads regardless of how they're tagged. I think computer users tend to only look at the subforums of interest, so they only see the posts tagged there.

              • Stub replied to this.

                  Thanks for the tip. The "All Discussions" tab works on my desktop as well. Just tried it. Thx.

                  twocats Back to studying away from the piano

                  Trying to memorize the first notes of each section away from the piano isn't working. I think creating the chunks and analyzing the structure of the piece is okay to do away from the piano, but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!

                  Now I started on the "B" Presto part (which I've been working on periodically over the past few years)-- memorizing and not looking at the page at a fast and complicated sequence is definitely making it easier to play 😃

                      twocats Off topic but I look at PT on my phone so the "All Discussions" tab is the easiest way to view new posts, and I see all threads regardless of how they're tagged. I think computer users tend to only look at the subforums of interest, so they only see the posts tagged there.

                      A little bit more off-topic chatter--I read PT on my laptop and always hit the "All Discussions" tab. That is much, much easier than going through each sub-forum. Sometimes it's obvious which sub-forum a discussion is in, but for the most part, I have no idea where most discussions are located.

                        twocats but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!

                        So what kind of memory does that fall under? Muscle (finger) memory? Aural? Visual?

                        As has been mentioned, memorizing a difficult section can be quite helpful. I certainly find myself doing that. I think it is most helpful when big jumps and/or big chords are involved. If I had perfect kinesthetic knowledge of the piano keyboard, I wouldn't need to look at the keyboard--in theory, at least.

                            Stub So what kind of memory does that fall under? Muscle (finger) memory? Aural? Visual?

                            My aural ability is terrible 😂 I can recognize when I've hit an obvious wrong note but it doesn't help me find the right one. (My dad used to sing the correct note if my sister or I made a mistake-- it was not helpful!!)

                            I think being able to start playing the sections standalone is visual (for me) for sure, seeing where my hands are on the keys. But also remembering that the lower note is a B-flat and how my hands look and the intervals that are there. The finger memory is what's activated after I play those first notes and continue.

                              Stub but I need to actually play the sections to memorize them!

                              So what kind of memory does that fall under? Muscle (finger) memory? Aural? Visual?

                              I think most people would say that playing the music to memorize it would involve muscle memory, aural memory, and visual memory but different people would use different amounts of those three.

                                  pianoloverus I think most people would say that playing the music to memorize it would involve muscle memory, aural memory, and visual memory but different people would use different amounts of those three.

                                  I think in addition also memorizing "in this section it starts with B-flat on the lower note". I don't know what to call that, informational memory?

                                      twocats Trying to memorize the first notes of each section away from the piano isn't working.

                                      I have never been able to do this.

                                          ShiroKuro I have never been able to do this.

                                          I think it was a bit of wishful thinking 😆

                                            twocats I think most people would say that playing the music to memorize it would involve muscle memory, aural memory, and visual memory but different people would use different amounts of those three.

                                            I think in addition also memorizing "in this section it starts with B-flat on the lower note". I don't know what to call that, informational memory?

                                            I don't think many people are concerned with memorizing notes that begin some section as opposed to any other notes. They might be concerned with memorizing certain specific notes that are tricky for some reason or notes in passages that are almost like other passages but different in some detail. For example, in the Chopin Waltz in C sharp minor B section The same passage repeats twice but with very slight differences in the notes so one might be forced to memorize those differences . I don't think there's any special name for memorizing specific notes, and I've never even seen that idea mentioned in articles about memorization or books where a pianist discusses their personalmemorization techniques.

                                                pianoloverus it's a memory assist, just because you don't use it doesn't mean that no one else does...

                                                    twocats it's a memory assist,

                                                    Isn't that something Greg N. described in his video?

                                                    Anyway, it makes a lot of sense to me to use as another assist, as you say.

                                                        Stub So what kind of memory does that fall under? Muscle (finger) memory? Aural? Visual?

                                                        For me aural and visual. And from there I can use muscle memory. When it's a piece I play often it's more visual, when I didn't play it in a while it's more aural.

                                                          ShiroKuro Isn't that something Greg N. described in his video?

                                                          I can't remember! I didn't pay super close attention to the video and was doing my physical therapy exercises at the same time 🙂

                                                            pianoloverus

                                                            Because I learn pieces in sections, and when practicing I don't play them in the correct order I memorize on which note each section and each phrase starts automatically.

                                                              twocats
                                                              You're right that generalization is not good.
                                                              Of course there are different factors that makes a piece easy or hard. Remembering the notes is 1 thing but the actual playing we need to understand the hand mechanics such as which fingers are weak/strong, which ones are shorter/longer, hands relaxation especially playing fast pieces. Otherwise some pieces are not very playable.

                                                              I've never got into pieces at the ABRSM-10 level. There are 2 popular student pieces including Bach "Prelude in C" from WTC Book 1 & Satie "Gymnopedie 1". After a Google search found both rated between level 5 & 6. Both are challenging in their own way. The Prelude with just repeated chord arpeggios is much more manageable. Once you get the basic idea of holding the 2 bass notes and playng 6 notes on top, the rest is just repetition. Gymnopedie requires big jumps that are similar. After learning to do 1 jump with the help of the sustain pedal to fill in the gap, the other jumps are similar. Don't usually find remembering the notes a big issue.

                                                              A few years ago I watched a man play Nocturne Op 9 No 2 on a public piano. He played quite well with the sheet despite some hesitations that were not very noticeable. A piece like this is rated around level 8. How easy would it be to memorize something like this? And there are much longer pieces lasting for 10 minutes or more like a movement out of a Rachmaninov concerto that an average student wouldn't be playing.

                                                              A while ago I learned the first movement of Bach Italian Concerto in F just under 4 minutes. Went to a gathering and played it from memory. Good enough to delight some people in the room. 2 years ago I searched online for a piano arrangement of the "Sinfonia" from Bach Christmas Oratorio #2 but nothing satisfactory came up. The original is an ensemble piece with 8 parts played with flutes, strings & oboes. Ended up with my own arrangement and learned to play from memory for 6 minutes in an Andante tempo. A piece that was not originally written for piano and included in an ABRSM /RCM repertoire book doesn't have a rating.