keystring I had to rework the passage a bit this morning to out the tense and awkward technique that the body also remembered.

Wow, truly muscle memory in every sense!

keystring the overall structure of the piece may help you remember that first note. If the section is in F major, your first note might be a choice of F, A, or C (Tonic chord) or add Bb and D if it starts on the Dominant.

Oh gosh, that's too much thinking. I need to just be like "this is it" and start. I am capable of doing chord analysis but it's not immediate the way just "knowing the notes" is.

        Before you can memorize a piece fully, you need to work out the finger sequences that are playable. As you practice a piece, you may find other fingerings possibilities easier than the ones you're using before. Robert Estrin did a video before on Chopin fingerings. On the score Chopin would write in exact fingerings he expected his students to follow. When LH & RH notes are close together, sometimes it's easier to play certain notes with the other hand than as written.

        Memory can be referred to as remembering note sequences and finger sequences which is also part of muscle memory (letting your fingers play on autopilot without thinking about the notes).

        ShiroKuro @keystring cool that you remembered that! I'm always sort of fascinated by people who can play a piece or part of it, and they don't remember what it was. I've never experienced that.

        The reality of the time was a girl who had a piano, a handed down book of sonatas, no teaching, no model, no interaction with anyone regarding the music. There was no listening to music and saying "I'd like to learn to play this." and then you have to know what it's called. There was no reason to know the names of the things I played in those days. It was a different time and world.

          ShiroKuro I think that sounds much more complicated than just memorizing "the first note in the RH in the 2nd section is A"

          twocats Oh gosh, that's too much thinking. I need to just be like "this is it" and start. I am capable of doing chord analysis but it's not immediate the way just "knowing the notes" is.

          You both wrote something similar. I've ended up with questions.

          That is - it may be that I wrote of something simple in a complicated way. Like describing how walking is done, making it seem impossible, when in fact everyone walks.

          So - When you guys start a piece of music, do you first look over the whole thing before starting, see what key it's in, see for example that it might have an ABA pattern (middle is different, start and end are the same)? Like for simple music it might be in C major, the middle is in G major, the last part is in C major again. Do you do that - is it taught to do that? (As opposed to theory exercises being done as some kind of extra thing apart from working on music you play.)

          Like, if my piece is in C major, then I expect it to start with the notes of a C chord or a G chord. I'd be very surprised to find an F# or Eb. This isn't analysis - it's things we expect. Is there none of that?

          For memorizing music, I took it for granted that getting a handle of the basic shape and various patterns would be part of the process, which would help with it. There is working out the details, in small sections, but there is also the broad outline (I thought). If that's not done, might it be a thing that would help with memorizing music?

          Mostly I'm full of question marks.


                keystring So - When you guys start a piece of music, do you first look over the whole thing before starting, see what key it's in, see for example that it might have an ABA pattern (middle is different, start and end are the same)?

                Nope, I sit down and start playing. Usually I'm familiar with how the piece goes but I don't analyze it in any way. Sometimes I start in the wrong key signature because I was just playing something with a different key signature and then I have to go back and look! Usually during the initial reading process I figure out my fingerings and make my musical decisions but the reading itself is very brainless. And then I practice to get it into my muscle memory.

                keystring For memorizing music, I took it for granted that getting a handle of the basic shape and various patterns would be part of the process, which would help with it. There is working out the details, in small sections, but there is also the broad outline (I thought). If that's not done, might it be a thing that would help with memorizing music?

                Yes, this is a good way to approach memorizing music! I've never done it in the past but I actually made the effort to do it with the piece I'm trying to memorize.

                    Hi keystring

                    I do what you're describing, pretty much all the time. I'm always looking for short cuts! But in my case it's not for memorising as I don't do that with classical (anymore). For me it's a way of making the reading easier.

                    So check the key signature and then if it's music with any substantial amount of chords in it I may pencil some of the complicated chord names. I read the notes virtually instantaneously if I know the chord (as I described to ShiroKuro in a post a while back). In fact sometimes I'll pencil in technically incorrect chords, just because I find that easier to read. I.e. an Eb9 rather than D#9.

                    For me it's not analysis, I just do it automatically when there's sheet music in front of me. If there's ever more than 2 written notes on the page my brain converts them to chords. I've no doubt there are things about this that purists would hate, but my reading would be substantially slower if I didn't do it, and if I was memorising that would also be slower.

                    As I said in a previous post there is an analogy with letters and words. You don't read the individual letters, you read the words. For me notes and chords work in the same way.

                    Anyway probably off track here, so I'll stop now.

                    Cheers

                    Simon
                    All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                    Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                        keystring it may be that I wrote of something simple in a complicated way. Like describing how walking is done, making it seem impossible, when in fact everyone walks.

                        I love this as an example of explaining something simple in a complicated way! (Itā€™s also an elegant example because, while yes, everyone does it, in fact, the mechanics of walking are anything but simple! šŸ˜ƒ

                        So - When you guys start a piece of music, do you first look over the whole thing before starting, see what key it's in, see for example that it might have an ABA pattern (middle is different, start and end are the same)? Like for simple music it might be in C major, the middle is in G major, the last part is in C major again. Do you do that

                        Nope, I never do that. šŸ˜† I look at the key signature, note the number of flats or sharpsā€¦ sometimes (but not always) I will play them (i.e., I literally play F#, C#, G# first with the RH and then with the LH), esp. if I was just practicing a piece in a different key signature and I want to reset my brain. And then I start in on the piece. Thatā€™s it. Depending on the music, and on what kinds of practice strategies Iā€™m employing, I might look through the music to find the most difficult section and start there (I used to do this religiously, but Iā€™ve mellowed in recent years and I tend to just start at the beginning these days). But even this is not looking through the score to understand the structure of the piece. Although I do learn the structure as I read-play through itā€¦

                        • is it taught to do that?

                        I am sure some people teach thatā€¦ but you know, an interesting thing about my experience of piano lessons is that I had already taught myself to read both clefs before I started lesson, and Iā€™m such a good reader, I think none of the teachers Iā€™ve ever had have considered I might need some guidance regarding looking at a scoreā€¦

                        Like, if my piece is in C major, then I expect it to start with the notes of a C chord or a G chord. I'd be very surprised to find an F# or Eb. This isn't analysis - it's things we expect. Is there none of that?

                        Nope, I donā€™t have those expectations. I donā€™t even look through the piece to check signature changes, key sig changesā€¦ I just read, taking comfort from the fact that I will discover those things when they occur.

                            Simonb As I said in a previous post there is an analogy with letters and words. You don't read the individual letters, you read the words. For me notes and chords work in the same way.

                            Are you explicitly aware of chord names when you do this?

                            Because, when I see a note, or groups of notes, I can look at the page and plop my hands down on those keys instantly. But I am not thinking ā€œCā€ or chord namesā€¦

                            Over the course of this thread, Iā€™m starting to think that my experience of sightreading and playing must be primarily visual/spatialā€¦ like ā€œthat note there is this key here.ā€ And never ā€œthat D in the treble clef is the D key here on the keyboard two octaves above middle Cā€ or whateverā€¦

                            Obviously no one who reads with any fluency is saying that in their heads, but what I mean is that most of the time, I am not consciously aware of a note-name when Iā€™m playing or when Iā€™m reading.

                            If I habitually make a mistake or regularly play something wrong, I might write the note-name on the scoreā€¦ And then recently, Iā€™ve been making it a point to work on music with more chords. So one of the pieces Iā€™m learning right now has a bunch of four-note chords in them. And I have done more ā€œchord analysisā€ type things with that, though not true chord analysis. But for example, I explicitly look at the chords and make a note of ā€œok, from this chord to the next, it moves down a whole stepā€¦ and here these three chords in a row have in common the inner note, which is an F#ā€

                            Iā€™m not naming those chords (like Greg N in the video, my reaction is ā€œI donā€™t careā€ šŸ˜… ) but I am doing a more ā€œalphabet-basedā€ reading than I normally doā€¦

                                I think itā€™s interesting that there are so many similar things in the way @twocats and I ā€œreadā€ the scoreā€¦

                                It makes me suspect that if we did a study on ā€œhabitual readersā€ versus ā€œhabitual memorizers,ā€ we might find these tendencies or learning patterns in each groupā€¦.

                                  ShiroKuro Are you explicitly aware of chord names when you do this?

                                  Because, when I see a note, or groups of notes, I can look at the page and plop my hands down on those keys instantly. But I am not thinking ā€œCā€ or chord namesā€¦

                                  Over the course of this thread, Iā€™m stating to think that my experience of sightreading and playing must be primarily visual/spatialā€¦ like ā€œthat note there is this key here.ā€ And never ā€œthat D in the treble clef is the D key here on the keyboard two octaves above middle Cā€ or whateverā€¦

                                  I always write chord names in my scores, as long as they're chords I can understand, not something like Bā™­m(maj13). It is a tremendous help. Obviously, for me chords are nothing like words that I can read in a single glance. But switching between looking at my keyboard and looking at the notes, the chord names help a lot. For instance, I play sex arpeggio-like structures, and the two first ones are based on C, and conveniently start on the note C, and then they change to G, and start on the note D. Seeing this G written in my score helps reminding me that I should not start on C again, but on D.

                                  Sometimes I spontaneously memorise the score, and if there are chords or arpeggios, the chord names really help me to remember the sequence of what to play when.

                                  *
                                  ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                                      Hi ShiroKuro

                                      That's very interesting, I simply think that means you're a better reader of notes than I am! Or you're seeing the same patterns as me, and perhaps from repetition your brain has memorised them in a similar way, but without the conscious thought of what chord you're playing.

                                      In my non-classical playing, I play from chord charts or lead sheets all the time (and have been for decades), so the association with chord names is very strong. I can play and voice chords in multiple inversions (in both hands separately or together) on the fly without having any sheet music in front of me. Only when it gets to complex Jazz chords or similarly complex classical chords (i.e. Db7-9#5) do I have to stop and think.

                                      Cheers

                                      Simon
                                      All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                                      Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                                          Animisha the chord names really help me to remember the sequence of what to play when.

                                          So did you (do you) study music theory or chord theory when you first started learning piano?

                                              ShiroKuro Over the course of this thread, Iā€™m starting to think that my experience of sightreading and playing must be primarily visual/spatialā€¦ like ā€œthat note there is this key here.ā€ And never ā€œthat D in the treble clef is the D key here on the keyboard two octaves above middle Cā€ or whateverā€¦

                                              I think I want to add to this: visual/spatial/physicalā€¦. Because I definitely see notes on the page and automatically have a hand shape, and I see a phrase and know which finger to start withā€¦

                                              I do also sometimes write in fingering, and with more difficult music, figuring out the fingering is something I spend more time doing at the beginning of learning the piece. (If I were only reading HS, then I would probably never write in fingering)

                                                Simonb simply think that means you're a better reader of notes than I am!

                                                Probably not! More likely is that we read differently.

                                                Or you're seeing the same patterns as me, and perhaps from repetition your brain has memorised them in a similar way, but without the conscious thought of what chord you're playing.

                                                I think this is more likely the case. Esp. since I play music in a fairly consistent style as well, so that probably makes a big difference.

                                                Simonb In my non-classical playing, I play from chord charts or lead sheets all the time (and have been for decades), so the association with chord names is very strong.

                                                This is certainly relevant. I donā€™t play from lead sheets, and unlike @Animisha I never write in chord names, so when Iā€™m playing, Iā€™m just not thinking about chord names.

                                                    Ok, I went and looked at some of my scores to see what Iā€™m writing in the scoreā€¦. Itā€™s primarily fingering, and when I do write in a note-name, itā€™s either because itā€™s something I kept playing wrong or, as you can see here, I write in the the two first notes (LH, RH) on the next page in case Iā€™m late turning the page. Hereā€™s Hana Bi

                                                    Hereā€™s another example ā€” this is one Iā€™ll play in the recital, and itā€™s pretty easy for me, you can see Iā€™ve hardly written anything on the score. (Compared to other music where I have something written over practically every note)

                                                    New day d section

                                                    Hereā€™s September Song, which was quite hard for me, and throughout the whole score thereā€™s all kinds of stuff Iā€™ve written, but very few note names (the ones you see here are at the end of the page, so itā€™s just a clue for whatā€™s coming on the next page, although once the piece was in my fingers, I turned much earlier)

                                                      ShiroKuro Are the D I J in squares your Molly sections? šŸ˜€

                                                      ShiroKuro So did you (do you) study music theory or chord theory when you first started learning piano?

                                                      No, my first book was Alfred's and their method is rather chord-oriented, starting with first C, then G7 and after a while even F. They always wrote the chord names were written above the score. Then I played some other music that was supposed to be very easy, using only these three chords C, G7 and G, but I struggled with it, and then I realised it was because the chord names were not written in the score. And so began a lifelong dependence on writing chord names into the score!

                                                      *
                                                      ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                                                            Animisha Are the D I J in squares your Molly sections?

                                                            Not really. Iā€™ve been using rehearsal marks for forever. If a score has them already written in, I use those, but a lot of contemporary music doesnā€™t, so I write my own. Using MGā€™s methods really fires with a lot things I was already doing (I still to finish her bookā€¦ šŸ˜…

                                                              Animisha No, my first book was Alfred's and their method is rather chord-oriented,

                                                              That makes a lot of sense!

                                                                ShiroKuro I think itā€™s interesting that there are so many similar things in the way @twocats and I ā€œreadā€ the scoreā€¦

                                                                Everything you've written is exactly the way I approach learning a new piece! I don't need to write down chords either, I just plop my hands in the right place unless it's a super complicated chord where I have to dissect and then usually end up memorizing it.

                                                                  ShiroKuro Nope, I never do that. šŸ˜† I look at the key signature, note the number of flats or sharpsā€¦ sometimes (but not always) I will play them (i.e., I literally play F#, C#, G# first with the RH and then with the LH), esp. if I was just practicing a piece in a different key signature and I want to reset my brain. And then I start in on the piece. Thatā€™s it. Depending on the music, and on what kinds of practice strategies Iā€™m employing, I might look through the music to find the most difficult section and start there (I used to do this religiously, but Iā€™ve mellowed in recent years and I tend to just start at the beginning these days). But even this is not looking through the score to understand the structure of the piece. Although I do learn the structure as I read-play through itā€¦

                                                                  So I'm thinking about all this. One thought is, a thing I learned about myself is that every strength is a weakness, and every weakness is a potential strength. As a simplistic example, the by ear player trying to learn to read music while looking at a score of music he already knows will have his ear take over preventing an engagement with the notes on the page. These days I'm a relatively strong reader. The notes on the page "dictate" what I play next and I don't have to be aware of anything for my fingers to go to the right place (though knowledge will help, esp. if the style is unfamiliar). If you never have to remember or know what's coming next, because the page will tell you, why would you gain that facility or even think of acquiring it?

                                                                  In memorizing music maybe we have two aspects. One is the details of the moment - the small sections that the pianist on YT focused on. The other is that you have to play the whole piece and pieces often have distinct sections. You have to keep track of the whole thing. This is where I think the device of "remember the first note of a section" comes in.

                                                                  For this 2nd macro-view for setting up sections, I think awareness of basic musical structure can help. Yes, you might memorize that "this section starts on A" - but will you still remember 6 months or a year later? But if the piece is in D major, and the section has modulated to A major (as music often does) then you can also predict the probability of that A to help you. My feeling is that patterns play a role for helping to memorize. Also combining the macro and micro view.

                                                                  This may be dumb: I noticed that grocery stores always seem to have the same layout, in that the fresh produce is always on the right near the door. If I see something yellow in that area it's likely to be bananas or lemons, and unlikely to be a tin of cornstarch or a dustpan. I'll zero in on details like comparing price, checking ingredients, but I also have a macro view of the store. (This is a terrible example.)

                                                                  Because I've had to address different things, I've learned to switch up how I do things depending on the aim. Is everything done in sight reading also the right process for memorizing? Might new memorizing processes give new skills to reading music in unfamiliar styles?