ShiroKuro be able to play that passage out of context and without the sheet music
I think this part is key, to be able to recall it without context!
I think the doctor would say that a bit of vegetable is better than no vegetable 
Memorization (when you hate it)
- Edited
twocats I should study.
Are you thinking of chord analysis? Audiating from the score? Curious what you will be doing.
I have heard people advocate for chord analysis and using that for memorization. My teacher is always trying to get me to know just what chord I'm playing. She can do it on the fly--she's been playing for probably sixty years and teaching music theory for twenty--but for me, I have to take pencil in hand and write it down. Even if I could, I don't think I have the mental reserves to remember the order of the chords and translate that into music in real time. For me, if I memorized, it would probably be almost all muscle memory.
twocats I think the doctor would say that a bit of vegetable is better than no vegetable
those dang doctors!!! 
Stub For me, if I memorized, it would probably be almost all muscle memory.
re this... when I read-play, I don't think I'm relying on muscle memory exclusively, although I'm sure it's a big element... but I do think sort of forcing myself to have a more explicit memory, using names etc., will be beneficial....
Of course, time will tell! I need to actually try it first! 
Josephine I don't experience those problems, but we all have different brains. I've always been good at memorizing, not only music but everything.
But how much and how complex is the music you're memorizing? Have you ever had to play 1/2 hour music from memory?
twocats to add to SK's comment, I'm not asking or encouraging you or anyone else to memorize, or to debate the pros and cons of memorizing. I want to try this for myself and asked if anyone else has gone through something similar and to get some advice. You don't see a value in memorizing and that's fine, but your comments aren't helpful to my request.
They are an obvious and important outgrowth of the discussion. Almost every thread naturally has some thread drift. Other posters also mentioned with or reasons why they were not in favor of memorization.
Stub Are you thinking of chord analysis? Audiating from the score? Curious what you will be doing.
I'm not going to do chord analysis in the sense that my friend is doing-- as in "what's happening relative to the key". His chord analysis layer in forScore showed I, IV, VI, etc. Since he majored in piano performance he says all that is second nature to him, but that's like adding a non-trivial math step to me. But I can recognize a simple chord on its own without much effort, as in "that's an E major chord".
I know the piece well in my head and need to study the connection between a phrase and what actual notes are happening. As I'd mentioned, my current approach is pretty brainless and I'm on GPS autopilot. I'm a visual learner and when I was a kid, part of memorizing was remembering how my hands look at a certain place. But that's unreliable and I need to tie that to the actual notes.
Here are my weaknesses and things I want to pay attention to:
- Really internalize what key a piece or section is in. Sometimes I get "stuck" on playing an extra flat or other accidental because it was in my previous piece or a previous section. It's because I'm not paying enough attention. Sometimes I start and then am like "oops, what's the key signature?!".
- Learn the chord/notes for the beginnings of phrases.
- Pay attention to what's happening in the bass! Because I'm relying on my reading ability so much, I'm only paying attention to whatever immediate notes are coming up next. But I realized last year when cramming for my chamber music that if I actually pay attention to the sequence that's happening and learning what it is, then I'm internalizing it and am able to learn it much more quickly. I think this is one big benefit of learning hands separately, because you naturally have to pay attention to what's happening in the left hand.
pianoloverus They are an obvious and important outgrowth of the discussion. Almost every thread naturally has some thread drift. Other posters also mentioned with or reasons why they were not in favor of memorization.
Saying it once is fine and I read everyone's responses. But I don't see the point in constantly repeating that you don't see any value in memorizing, when I have said that I intend to try it and that I do see potential value in it. It very much feels like you're trying to get me to give up before I even start.
If you would like to argue the merits of memorization, please feel free to start your own thread on it.
ShiroKuro certainly memorization isn’t going to be a cure-all, but I can’t figure out why you seem so unwilling to consider that there could be benefits to doing something one doesn’t normally do.
The last time I played from memory was when I was a teenager playing in my teacher's student recitals once or twice a year. Even at that age I rarely memorized a piece. When I took piano lessons in college as a non-music major I didn't memorize a single piece nor did my teacher want me to. If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day. But if I had tried to memorize the music I was learning to a very secure level the list would be at most 20% of what it actually is despite the fact I think I am a pretty good memorizer.
Simon's example of Maple Leaf Rag is a good one. When I learned it, I had to memorize the entire trio to ensure I could look and land the jumps. On harder pieces, I find I've mostly memorized the piece by the time I've worked it up. I get to a point where I "get lost" because I've been playing from memory and need to jump back to the sheet music. When I hit that point, I try to push through and memorize the rest.
pianoloverus If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day.
The repertoire I'm working on is quite limited but I'm trying to work on them to a deep level. Not memorizing clearly works great for what you're doing but not everyone has the same goals.
pianoloverus But how much and how complex is the music you're memorizing? Have you ever had to play 1/2 hour music from memory?
That has nothing to do with this topic.
twocats If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day.
The repertoire I'm working on is quite limited but I'm trying to work on them to a deep level. Not memorizing clearly works great for what you're doing but not everyone has the same goals.
You are not correct in thinking that I don't work on my pieces to a high level. But even if you were correct about that my point would still stand.
pianoloverus it still feels like you're trying to get me to agree that there's no value in memorizing or to give up on trying before I even start. This is not an argument that you have to win, so please just stop.
twocats I think learning the notes is always the big hurdle for me. I guess with memorizing it would be "learning the notes, by memory".
Yes, I think so! I don't learn the left hand separately like Greg Niemczuk does by the way. I start with the right hand, learn and immediately memorize a few bars at the time until I've memorized one phrase, and then add the left hand until I've memorized the phrase hands together. Then I go on to the next phrase. I often take a short break, like 5 or 10 minutes, and then check if it's still memorized. In the evening I play what I memorized in the morning a few more times. The next morning I check if it's still there. At the start I can't take a break of a week for instance immediately after memorizing, but after the second day the section I memorized is pretty solid.
And I think the breaks and checking are great strategies, too. I just have to be more rigorous about it (hard to break old habits!).pianoloverus When I took piano lessons in college as a non-music major I didn't memorize a single piece nor did my teacher want me to. If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day. But if I had tried to memorize the music I was learning to a very secure level the list would be at most 20% of what it actually is despite the fact I think I am a pretty good memorizer.
There is a distinct difference between memorizing all your pieces versus memorizing a couple of percent of them. If you memorized 80-100% of your pieces, then, yes, you will be time-limited in the number of pieces you learn. If you only memorize the occasional piece, then it's not going to materially impact the number of pieces you learn. Twocats is proposing to learn an occasional piece. It won't limit her, imo.
- Edited
Stub When I took piano lessons in college as a non-music major I didn't memorize a single piece nor did my teacher want me to. If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day. But if I had tried to memorize the music I was learning to a very secure level the list would be at most 20% of what it actually is despite the fact I think I am a pretty good memorizer.
There is a distinct difference between memorizing all your pieces versus memorizing a couple of percent of them. If you memorized 80-100% of your pieces, then, yes, you will be time-limited in the number of pieces you learn. If you only memorize the occasional piece, then it's not going to materially impact the number of pieces you learn. Twocats is proposing to learn an occasional piece. It won't limit her, imo.
You're preaching to the choir. I've said I think several times on this thread that memorizing a few pieces is no problem. I've also never said that two cats shouldn't memorize one piece or several pieces. The point of my post you quoted is that by not memorizing pieces one can learn more repertoire.
- Edited
pianoloverus The point of my post you're quoted is that by not memorizing pieces one can learn more repertoire.
So how is this point relevant to this thread at all? In which I am discussing my future attempt to memorize one piece?
- Edited
I'm always fascinated to hear about people's difficulties with memorization because I'm on the complete other side of the reading-memorization spectrum — it's rare that I am able to play a piece at speed without having memorized it inadvertently (e.g. I literally memorized Clair de lune over the last 2 days while I'm still not consistent in the middle section). The last time I remember it happening was for Bach-Petri Sheep May Safely Graze, where it ended up being easier to have the music in front of me for the slight variations in voicing/etc.
On the other hand, my sight reading is atrocious to the point that when I go to the local chamber music readings, I play violin instead of piano so I actually have a chance of keeping up .
Back to the point of the thread — I think it's a fantastic exercise to try memorizing something if you normally don't! I've realized that relying on my memory also means that I've also given myself the crutch of being able to see my hands at all times whereas good readers often have a good sense of proprioception. There must be things I take for granted that readers have to work harder at, and would benefit from experiencing without looking at music. I should really practice sight reading more often, but at this point after half a lifetime of dwelling on my weaknesses I'd also rather lean into my strengths once in a while.
"You're a smart kid. But your playing is terribly dull."
- Edited
pianoloverus You're preaching to the choir. I've said I think several times on this thread that memorizing a few pieces is no problem. I've also never said that two cats shouldn't memorize one piece or several pieces. The point of my post you quoted is that by not memorizing pieces one can learn more repertoire.
Maybe you don't realize it, but those comments make people, well, me, I can't speak for other people, hesitate to write replies. I do want to explain how I memorize, because I do it all the time. But I'm afraid to get into a discussion about how wrong I am for memorizing so much.
I don't want to have a discussion about why I do that, and I don't want to feel I have to defend myself, or answer your question about how complex the pieces are that I'm playing, because when I answer that question, you will start about that too and say I should play easier pieces. And this thread is about how to memorize. Not about if it's good or bad.
You have to realize that most of us don't have the ambition to become a professional pianist. Some of us started as an adult. We aren't interested in following the rules that children have to follow when they start when they are 5 years old. We started playing because we enjoy it as a hobby, we want to talk about our hobby, and we don't want discussions about how wrong our way of practicing is all the time. If we need help with our way of practicing we will ask specific questions about it, and then you can offer advice about it if you want, because your advice can be helpful, but I don't really want it when I don't ask for it.
I know it would be better when I was better at reading sheet music, but I want to enjoy my hobby and be able to post in a forum without being criticized all the time. You probably do it to help us, but unfortunately it has the effect that I'm afraid to post on the forums, because I don't want to defend myself in public every time.