ShiroKuro certainly memorization isn’t going to be a cure-all, but I can’t figure out why you seem so unwilling to consider that there could be benefits to doing something one doesn’t normally do.

The last time I played from memory was when I was a teenager playing in my teacher's student recitals once or twice a year. Even at that age I rarely memorized a piece. When I took piano lessons in college as a non-music major I didn't memorize a single piece nor did my teacher want me to. If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day. But if I had tried to memorize the music I was learning to a very secure level the list would be at most 20% of what it actually is despite the fact I think I am a pretty good memorizer.

      Simon's example of Maple Leaf Rag is a good one. When I learned it, I had to memorize the entire trio to ensure I could look and land the jumps. On harder pieces, I find I've mostly memorized the piece by the time I've worked it up. I get to a point where I "get lost" because I've been playing from memory and need to jump back to the sheet music. When I hit that point, I try to push through and memorize the rest.

      pianoloverus If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day.

      The repertoire I'm working on is quite limited but I'm trying to work on them to a deep level. Not memorizing clearly works great for what you're doing but not everyone has the same goals.

          pianoloverus But how much and how complex is the music you're memorizing? Have you ever had to play 1/2 hour music from memory?

          That has nothing to do with this topic.

            twocats If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day.

            The repertoire I'm working on is quite limited but I'm trying to work on them to a deep level. Not memorizing clearly works great for what you're doing but not everyone has the same goals.

            You are not correct in thinking that I don't work on my pieces to a high level. But even if you were correct about that my point would still stand.

                pianoloverus it still feels like you're trying to get me to agree that there's no value in memorizing or to give up on trying before I even start. This is not an argument that you have to win, so please just stop.

                  twocats I think learning the notes is always the big hurdle for me. I guess with memorizing it would be "learning the notes, by memory".

                  Yes, I think so! I don't learn the left hand separately like Greg Niemczuk does by the way. I start with the right hand, learn and immediately memorize a few bars at the time until I've memorized one phrase, and then add the left hand until I've memorized the phrase hands together. Then I go on to the next phrase. I often take a short break, like 5 or 10 minutes, and then check if it's still memorized. In the evening I play what I memorized in the morning a few more times. The next morning I check if it's still there. At the start I can't take a break of a week for instance immediately after memorizing, but after the second day the section I memorized is pretty solid.

                      Josephine I think small chunks is the key! I've been biting off way more than I can chew 😂 And I think the breaks and checking are great strategies, too. I just have to be more rigorous about it (hard to break old habits!).

                        pianoloverus When I took piano lessons in college as a non-music major I didn't memorize a single piece nor did my teacher want me to. If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day. But if I had tried to memorize the music I was learning to a very secure level the list would be at most 20% of what it actually is despite the fact I think I am a pretty good memorizer.

                        There is a distinct difference between memorizing all your pieces versus memorizing a couple of percent of them. If you memorized 80-100% of your pieces, then, yes, you will be time-limited in the number of pieces you learn. If you only memorize the occasional piece, then it's not going to materially impact the number of pieces you learn. Twocats is proposing to learn an occasional piece. It won't limit her, imo.

                            Stub When I took piano lessons in college as a non-music major I didn't memorize a single piece nor did my teacher want me to. If you saw a list of the pieces I've studied during the last 5 to 10 years you would probably be shocked by its length even though I generally only play one hour a day. But if I had tried to memorize the music I was learning to a very secure level the list would be at most 20% of what it actually is despite the fact I think I am a pretty good memorizer.

                            There is a distinct difference between memorizing all your pieces versus memorizing a couple of percent of them. If you memorized 80-100% of your pieces, then, yes, you will be time-limited in the number of pieces you learn. If you only memorize the occasional piece, then it's not going to materially impact the number of pieces you learn. Twocats is proposing to learn an occasional piece. It won't limit her, imo.

                            You're preaching to the choir. I've said I think several times on this thread that memorizing a few pieces is no problem. I've also never said that two cats shouldn't memorize one piece or several pieces. The point of my post you quoted is that by not memorizing pieces one can learn more repertoire.

                                pianoloverus The point of my post you're quoted is that by not memorizing pieces one can learn more repertoire.

                                So how is this point relevant to this thread at all? In which I am discussing my future attempt to memorize one piece?

                                  I'm always fascinated to hear about people's difficulties with memorization because I'm on the complete other side of the reading-memorization spectrum — it's rare that I am able to play a piece at speed without having memorized it inadvertently (e.g. I literally memorized Clair de lune over the last 2 days while I'm still not consistent in the middle section). The last time I remember it happening was for Bach-Petri Sheep May Safely Graze, where it ended up being easier to have the music in front of me for the slight variations in voicing/etc.

                                  On the other hand, my sight reading is atrocious to the point that when I go to the local chamber music readings, I play violin instead of piano so I actually have a chance of keeping up 😅.

                                  Back to the point of the thread — I think it's a fantastic exercise to try memorizing something if you normally don't! I've realized that relying on my memory also means that I've also given myself the crutch of being able to see my hands at all times whereas good readers often have a good sense of proprioception. There must be things I take for granted that readers have to work harder at, and would benefit from experiencing without looking at music. I should really practice sight reading more often, but at this point after half a lifetime of dwelling on my weaknesses I'd also rather lean into my strengths once in a while.

                                  "You're a smart kid. But your playing is terribly dull."

                                    pianoloverus You're preaching to the choir. I've said I think several times on this thread that memorizing a few pieces is no problem. I've also never said that two cats shouldn't memorize one piece or several pieces. The point of my post you quoted is that by not memorizing pieces one can learn more repertoire.

                                    Maybe you don't realize it, but those comments make people, well, me, I can't speak for other people, hesitate to write replies. I do want to explain how I memorize, because I do it all the time. But I'm afraid to get into a discussion about how wrong I am for memorizing so much.

                                    I don't want to have a discussion about why I do that, and I don't want to feel I have to defend myself, or answer your question about how complex the pieces are that I'm playing, because when I answer that question, you will start about that too and say I should play easier pieces. And this thread is about how to memorize. Not about if it's good or bad.

                                    You have to realize that most of us don't have the ambition to become a professional pianist. Some of us started as an adult. We aren't interested in following the rules that children have to follow when they start when they are 5 years old. We started playing because we enjoy it as a hobby, we want to talk about our hobby, and we don't want discussions about how wrong our way of practicing is all the time. If we need help with our way of practicing we will ask specific questions about it, and then you can offer advice about it if you want, because your advice can be helpful, but I don't really want it when I don't ask for it.

                                    I know it would be better when I was better at reading sheet music, but I want to enjoy my hobby and be able to post in a forum without being criticized all the time. You probably do it to help us, but unfortunately it has the effect that I'm afraid to post on the forums, because I don't want to defend myself in public every time.

                                        Hi Josephine

                                        There are no rules, and remember this is just a forum, with mainly amateurs posting opinions, not facts.

                                        I said on a post in PW a month or 2 ago, that I read and digest what is said on here (and there) and I post occasionally if I feel I can help someone. I used to get quite wound up about other peoples opinions, but now I simply post my view and unless someone contradicts me with something that is clearly wrong (i.e. that's the note B, when it's obviously a G) I don't bother to argue with people. If they have a different view, fine, they may be right, they may be talking codswallop (love that expression), or they may be being deliberately provocative. I'll let them carry on... So my advice to you is to read the posts on here, take on-board stuff that you think helps you, and the rest... well a pinch of salt!

                                        The only person I really take advice from is my Piano Teacher. I'm never going to be a professional Pianist, but as an amateur I've done about 200 non-classical gigs, and I've never had anyone complain about my playing. The fact that my hand position, or my seating position, or my sight-reading, or indeed any other aspect of my ability to play music isn't technically correct doesn't concern me. As you said most of us are in it to have fun. And I've had a lot!

                                        As it happens I basically agree with Pianoloverus, and I'm sure he means well, but if you think some, or a lot of memorisation is the way forward for you, and it enhances your enjoyment of the music then do it. Take no notice of what anyone says on here and have fun!

                                        Cheers

                                        Simon
                                        All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                                        Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                                            Simonb

                                            Thank you, I appreciate that you want to keep things calm and nice here, but I'm not upset. I just wrote my opinion down, that's all. I'm not looking for a discussion or fight, and I'm not looking for people to agree or disagree with it.

                                              Simonb There are no rules

                                              Actually this forum has just one rule which includes "don't routinely make other people's experiences worse".

                                              Instead of being given helpful advice we've been repeatedly told "there's no point in doing what you're doing", which is the opposite of helpful. Not every thread is a topic that's up for debate or an argument that someone "has to" win.

                                              In a spoiler as I don't want to discuss this in this thread but I think it's relevant: I have seen an innocent question by a new poster at PW turn into a huge argument that has nothing to do with the original topic so many times, and is there any surprise that the OP never returns? I'm glad that this hasn't been allowed to happen here.

                                                TheBoringPianist On the other hand, my sight reading is atrocious to the point that when I go to the local chamber music readings, I play violin instead of piano so I actually have a chance of keeping up 😅.

                                                Oh, you're not alone in this-- I can sight read okay but definitely not well enough to read chamber music with others! At the ACMP play-ins here, the pianists are always assigned a group and choose their pieces in advance so that they can prepare.

                                                Also, I'm always amazed at people who play very different instruments well!

                                                TheBoringPianist I should really practice sight reading more often, but at this point after half a lifetime of dwelling on my weaknesses I'd also rather lean into my strengths once in a while.

                                                Clearly your sight reading skills haven't impeded you very much 🙂

                                                    Edited.

                                                    I finally finished the video that @Josephine and @twocats recommended. Very interested and beneficial! I loved it where he was talking about what some kind of chord was, and how he was calling it a different chord, even though it was actually some other chord, and he just said "But I do not care." If a professional can take that lax approach, I think so can the rest of us! 😃

                                                    Joking aside, I implemented some of his suggestions last night during practice (as I was eating my one-quarter of a vegetable) and I think it was quite helpful. I tried to memorize an 8-measure passage focusing on chord and note names and even though at the end of 15-ish minutes, I wouldn't call it truly memorized, I noticed a lot about the music that I hadn't noticed when just reading the score. All in all, very useful!

                                                      ShiroKuro I started my score study this morning and I think my struggle is definitely going to be doing "bite sized chunks". I want to bite off more than I can chew!

                                                      Maybe my goal should be to limit myself to one phrase per day when I'm at the piano. That will force me to be more patient and I have so much other stuff to work on anyway and I don't have any short-term deadline.