Memorization (when you hate it)
twocats I'm always tracking the score, no matter how well I know a piece. Because if I don't, I will lose my place.
The solution to that is to practice moving your eyes between the score and keyboard more. Eventually you won't lose your place.
pianoloverus but why would I look down if I don't have to? I don't see myself building that into my practice just to achieve not getting lost, because I could just do what I've been doing and track the score and not get lost.
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twocats but why would I look down if I don't have to? I don't see myself building that into my practice just to achieve not getting lost, because I could just do what I've been doing and track the score and not get lost.
Well I assume you must have to look down sometimes when you play from the score. And especially so when sight reading a piece. Even the best pianists do that quite a bit unless possibly if they are playing something that's very easy. They look at their hands because it makes playing the music much easier. And it would give you the option I mentioned earlier of memorizing a piece but still having the score on the music desk so you don't have to worry about memory slips. I believe you said you couldn't use that option because you couldn't look back and forth between the score and the keyboard. In other words being able to look back and forth between this score and the keyboard gives you an option between memorization (and playing without the score) and tracking the score all the time. I have never seen or heard of a pianist playing music at the level you play who does not regularly use the technique of looking back and forth between score and the keyboard when playing from the score.
Do you keep your eyes glued to the score when playing Chopin's first ballade?
pianoloverus of course I look down when I have to, but I don't when I don't...
I think we're talking about two different goals here. Memorizing a piece is an experiment for me and I'll see how it goes. Maybe I won't feel secure enough after I'm done and will want to have the score but I think just going through the process of memorizing will be valuable in some way.
I leaned violin in strings class in school. The students were asked to perform for the parents at the year-end concerts. I find that I have more confidence playing in front of the audience when my pieces were memorized. My eyes often skipped over bars or lines.
When I started piano. I wasn’t proficient reading 2 staffs at a time. Ended up learning pieces in small chunks and memorize them. I still lean towards memorizing than reading my pieces.
Whether a piece is easy or hard to memorize depends on how the LH & RH parts are arranged. If the parts are straightforward with lots of repetition, it’s easy to memorize. One of the pieces I learned a year ago is an arrangement is Simon & Garfunkel “Sound of Silence” with 5 verses. There are slight variations between verses but still repetitive so very little effort to play from memory. The last piece I worked on was the Bourree from Bach Lute Suite 1. Besides some awkward fingerings, got the piece more or less memorized after a week.
If a piece has scale runs or straightforward chord changes, it’s easy to memorize. If you see a scale run, you just need to know the start & end notes than reading the sequence 1 note at a time.
You can get into the habit of learning in small chunks. After every few bars turn the page over and try to recall the notes as much as possible. Going to get easier after a while.
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thepianoplayer416 the pieces I'm working on tend to be big and complicated, but I am planning to do small chunks. Thanks!
Josephine I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing. I think that's the advantage of memorizing a piece immediately from the start.
Just because a piece is memorized doesn't mean one doesn't have to focus on innumerable things besides the tone. One still has to focus on playing the correct notes which might require more focus since one doesn't have the score. And then there's the extremely common concern about memory problems which can take away focus on tone or any other aspect one has to concentrate on.
I don't experience those problems, but we all have different brains. I've always been good at memorizing, not only music but everything.
For me there are landmarks in the music itself. Like when you have to drive somewhere you can remember landmarks like the blue house, the old tree, the factory with a green sign, and so on.
pianoloverus certainly memorization isn’t going to be a cure-all, but I can’t figure out why you seem so unwilling to consider that there could be benefits to doing something one doesn’t normally do.
Josephine I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing. I think that's the advantage of memorizing a piece immediately from the start.
I think learning the notes is always the big hurdle for me. I guess with memorizing it would be "learning the notes, by memory".
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People who rely more on playing by ear tend to memorize a lot more. I see a lot of online videos where a student played very well following sheet music.
When I was learning violin in school, I was an ok reader but not great. Having a good memory helped me to get through the year-end performances for the parents.
I started piano much later. I remembered a teacher once said that it’s much easier to play off lead sheets than pieces written on 2 staffs. He also said that many students are only able to play “Minuet in G” at a party which is a rather unfair generalization. I get into Classical pieces that require reading 2 staffs. Since reading is not my strength, I would rely on memorizing. I can play a few pieces from memory at a party than “Minuet in G that students would play.
thepianoplayer416 as someone who can't play by ear at all and is a pretty strong reader, I have not wanted to memorize unless I had to (childhood competitions and exams, for example).
So this is going way beyond my comfort zone as an adult. I thought I would never memorize anything again, but I'm going to try because I believe that I'll get something out of it.
I decided to try something: I have a lot more time (and energy) away from the piano than at the keys, so I'm going to study the score for Chopin Ballade 2 away from the piano. I think for the longest time I've been lazy and tried to remove as much mental effort as possible from playing piano (I always make so much effort to figure out my musical interpretation, but when it comes to learning the notes I'm just relying on a strong reading ability combined with muscle memory from practice). Now I need to make the mental effort and stop being lazy! I should study.
ShiroKuro pianoloverus certainly memorization isn’t going to be a cure-all, but I can’t figure out why you seem so unwilling to consider that there could be benefits to doing something one doesn’t normally do.
@pianoloverus to add to SK's comment, I'm not asking or encouraging you or anyone else to memorize, or to debate the pros and cons of memorizing. I want to try this for myself and asked if anyone else has gone through something similar and to get some advice. You don't see a value in memorizing and that's fine, but your comments aren't helpful to my request.
I was listening to a video about music theory and thinking about applying chord theory to sections of pieces that trip me up. I rarely "label" notes in my head when I play them, but I think I'm going to try to label the chord, memorize it and be able to play that passage out of context and without the sheet music.
Which is to say, @twocats , I'm planning to eat a few bites of the vegetable, but for now, probably not the whole thing. 
ShiroKuro be able to play that passage out of context and without the sheet music
I think this part is key, to be able to recall it without context!
I think the doctor would say that a bit of vegetable is better than no vegetable 
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twocats I should study.
Are you thinking of chord analysis? Audiating from the score? Curious what you will be doing.
I have heard people advocate for chord analysis and using that for memorization. My teacher is always trying to get me to know just what chord I'm playing. She can do it on the fly--she's been playing for probably sixty years and teaching music theory for twenty--but for me, I have to take pencil in hand and write it down. Even if I could, I don't think I have the mental reserves to remember the order of the chords and translate that into music in real time. For me, if I memorized, it would probably be almost all muscle memory.
twocats I think the doctor would say that a bit of vegetable is better than no vegetable
those dang doctors!!! 
Stub For me, if I memorized, it would probably be almost all muscle memory.
re this... when I read-play, I don't think I'm relying on muscle memory exclusively, although I'm sure it's a big element... but I do think sort of forcing myself to have a more explicit memory, using names etc., will be beneficial....
Of course, time will tell! I need to actually try it first! 