twocats I don't think you reached the stage where the piece became a part of you! First, it has to be completely solid. And then the memorization has to be completely solid. I think my friend means that you have to be able to lose yourself in the music, and having your eyes open and tracking the music doesn't let you do that.

  1. If one has learned a piece well but not fully memorized it, then at that stage one is usually not doing what I would call tracking the musical score. Before playing from memory became popular or even required, do you think keyboard players were not capable of losing themselves in the music(whatever that means) or had some expressive limitations? Do you think orchestral musicians or chamber music players of today lose something in their performances because they are playing with the score?
  2. If one is playing from memory then one's eyes are usually still open but focused mostly on the keyboard.

If someone has put in all the time usually needed to solidly memorize a piece AND Is has no fear of a memory lapse (rare), than I wouldn't be surprised if all that extra time with a piece improved their performance. But is it really worth it except possibly just occasionally considering all the downsides of memorization?

      pianoloverus I'm always tracking the score, no matter how well I know a piece. Because if I don't, I will lose my place.

      I don't think people are limited in their expressiveness if playing by the score but I think memorizing and not always being tied to the score like I currently am can allow me to access the piece in a different way. I'm talking about how memorization might be able to help me for certain pieces. I'm not comparing my experience to how pros would experience it.

          I too am always tracking the score whether it's a brand new piece I'm just starting to learn or the piece is fully polished.

          twocats I don't think people are limited in their expressiveness if playing by the score

          I agree with this.

          At the same time, I think that for those of us who are "readers," sometimes memorizing could be beneficial just as a way to experience internalizing a piece in a different way.

          So to @pianoloverus 's question:

          is it really worth it except possibly just occasionally considering all the downsides of memorization?

          I can only speak for myself of course, but "just occasionally" is exactly what I was thinking about and why this thread caught my attention.

              ShiroKuro At the same time, I think that for those of us who are "readers," sometimes memorizing could be beneficial just as a way to experience internalizing a piece in a different way.

              I do feel that I access "June" in a different way (and it still stuck with me after all these years!) and I immediately related to what my friend said and made the GPS analogy, despite really hating what I was hearing! I literally can't even tell you what note most of my pieces start with and I feel like memorizing will help me to internalize the content of the music better because it will force me to think about what I'm doing, instead of making musical decisions but being pretty "brainless" about the actual notes because I'm still just reading them every time.

              Definitely not going to memorize everything but going to try with one piece first and see how it goes.

              Also, there's the side benefit of actually being able to play something without music. I feel like everyone should have a few pieces that they're able to play on demand.

                  twocats I literally can't even tell you what note most of my pieces start with

                  Same!!!

                  twocats I feel like everyone should have a few pieces that they're able to play on demand.

                  I agree. I used to have one or two pieces like this, but the last time I did, it was when I was piano shopping (2019) so, yeah...

                        ShiroKuro so, are you definitely planning to eat a vegetable? 🤣

                          twocats I'm always tracking the score, no matter how well I know a piece. Because if I don't, I will lose my place.

                          The solution to that is to practice moving your eyes between the score and keyboard more. Eventually you won't lose your place.

                              pianoloverus but why would I look down if I don't have to? I don't see myself building that into my practice just to achieve not getting lost, because I could just do what I've been doing and track the score and not get lost.

                                  twocats but why would I look down if I don't have to? I don't see myself building that into my practice just to achieve not getting lost, because I could just do what I've been doing and track the score and not get lost.

                                  Well I assume you must have to look down sometimes when you play from the score. And especially so when sight reading a piece. Even the best pianists do that quite a bit unless possibly if they are playing something that's very easy. They look at their hands because it makes playing the music much easier. And it would give you the option I mentioned earlier of memorizing a piece but still having the score on the music desk so you don't have to worry about memory slips. I believe you said you couldn't use that option because you couldn't look back and forth between the score and the keyboard. In other words being able to look back and forth between this score and the keyboard gives you an option between memorization (and playing without the score) and tracking the score all the time. I have never seen or heard of a pianist playing music at the level you play who does not regularly use the technique of looking back and forth between score and the keyboard when playing from the score.

                                  Do you keep your eyes glued to the score when playing Chopin's first ballade?

                                      pianoloverus of course I look down when I have to, but I don't when I don't...

                                      I think we're talking about two different goals here. Memorizing a piece is an experiment for me and I'll see how it goes. Maybe I won't feel secure enough after I'm done and will want to have the score but I think just going through the process of memorizing will be valuable in some way.

                                        I leaned violin in strings class in school. The students were asked to perform for the parents at the year-end concerts. I find that I have more confidence playing in front of the audience when my pieces were memorized. My eyes often skipped over bars or lines.

                                        When I started piano. I wasn’t proficient reading 2 staffs at a time. Ended up learning pieces in small chunks and memorize them. I still lean towards memorizing than reading my pieces.

                                        Whether a piece is easy or hard to memorize depends on how the LH & RH parts are arranged. If the parts are straightforward with lots of repetition, it’s easy to memorize. One of the pieces I learned a year ago is an arrangement is Simon & Garfunkel “Sound of Silence” with 5 verses. There are slight variations between verses but still repetitive so very little effort to play from memory. The last piece I worked on was the Bourree from Bach Lute Suite 1. Besides some awkward fingerings, got the piece more or less memorized after a week.

                                        If a piece has scale runs or straightforward chord changes, it’s easy to memorize. If you see a scale run, you just need to know the start & end notes than reading the sequence 1 note at a time.

                                        You can get into the habit of learning in small chunks. After every few bars turn the page over and try to recall the notes as much as possible. Going to get easier after a while.

                                          thepianoplayer416 the pieces I'm working on tend to be big and complicated, but I am planning to do small chunks. Thanks!

                                            twocats

                                            I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing. I think that's the advantage of memorizing a piece immediately from the start.

                                                Josephine I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing. I think that's the advantage of memorizing a piece immediately from the start.

                                                Just because a piece is memorized doesn't mean one doesn't have to focus on innumerable things besides the tone. One still has to focus on playing the correct notes which might require more focus since one doesn't have the score. And then there's the extremely common concern about memory problems which can take away focus on tone or any other aspect one has to concentrate on.

                                                    pianoloverus

                                                    I don't experience those problems, but we all have different brains. I've always been good at memorizing, not only music but everything.

                                                    For me there are landmarks in the music itself. Like when you have to drive somewhere you can remember landmarks like the blue house, the old tree, the factory with a green sign, and so on.

                                                        pianoloverus certainly memorization isn’t going to be a cure-all, but I can’t figure out why you seem so unwilling to consider that there could be benefits to doing something one doesn’t normally do.

                                                            Josephine I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing. I think that's the advantage of memorizing a piece immediately from the start.

                                                            I think learning the notes is always the big hurdle for me. I guess with memorizing it would be "learning the notes, by memory".

                                                                People who rely more on playing by ear tend to memorize a lot more. I see a lot of online videos where a student played very well following sheet music.

                                                                When I was learning violin in school, I was an ok reader but not great. Having a good memory helped me to get through the year-end performances for the parents.

                                                                I started piano much later. I remembered a teacher once said that it’s much easier to play off lead sheets than pieces written on 2 staffs. He also said that many students are only able to play “Minuet in G” at a party which is a rather unfair generalization. I get into Classical pieces that require reading 2 staffs. Since reading is not my strength, I would rely on memorizing. I can play a few pieces from memory at a party than “Minuet in G that students would play.

                                                                  thepianoplayer416 as someone who can't play by ear at all and is a pretty strong reader, I have not wanted to memorize unless I had to (childhood competitions and exams, for example).

                                                                  So this is going way beyond my comfort zone as an adult. I thought I would never memorize anything again, but I'm going to try because I believe that I'll get something out of it.

                                                                    I decided to try something: I have a lot more time (and energy) away from the piano than at the keys, so I'm going to study the score for Chopin Ballade 2 away from the piano. I think for the longest time I've been lazy and tried to remove as much mental effort as possible from playing piano (I always make so much effort to figure out my musical interpretation, but when it comes to learning the notes I'm just relying on a strong reading ability combined with muscle memory from practice). Now I need to make the mental effort and stop being lazy! I should study.