Discussing Molly Gebrian (Splinter Discussion of "Molly Gebrian 7 Months Later")

navindra if I can cut my learning time down significantly I'll take all that I can get! Today I did slow practice of just a few bars at a time for my trouble spots and took microbreaks (10 seconds is a very short amount of time!) and I made a lot of progress!!

I like to read posts on both sides of an issue, in this case on how useful the MG methods have been. Most things, in my experience, are not black or white, yes or no, but lie somewhere in between. Please, discuss away!

Sophia That's why I'm surprised when I was informed that only the ones who drank the KoolAid were allowed to participate, because last I knew this is a forum, not a cult

Indeed.

I don't believe that was @JB_PT meaning, but rather that in particular @Nightowl 's first post in this thread, the implication (however unintentional) was quite critical of the people applying MG's methods, rather than being critical of MG's methods themselves. That is where I think the discussion went off course. ... Imagine dropping into a thread about playing pieces by Mozart and tell the people there that they shouldn't be wasting their time playing pieces by Mozart. I believe that's how some of the comments have sounded and I suspect that's what JB_PT meant in his comments about moving on if there's a thread he's not interested in.

So perhaps we can all turn back to the pros and cons of the method (MG's method or other methods). Because I don't think there's anyone here who's not interested in discussing and hearing each other's ideas.

Molly is a violinist. Right? If she has found the "magical formula" for practice and performance, why isn't she playing along side of players like Joshua Bell or Anne-Sophie Mutter? I'm inclined to look at her "philosophy" as a solution in search of a problem. It reminds me of Eckhardt Tolle, who came along with a new idea for meditation. Even though people had been meditating quite nicely for thousands of years, without Tolle's guidance, people latched on to his "new Ideas" and made him, and Oprah Winfrey's publishing company, a lot of money. Some people say these new ideas have changed their lives. Good for them. They certainly have changed Tolle's life from an out of work teacher to a self-help guru. I wonder what Mozart would think of Molly.

Pallas Here's how i learn a new song:
First, I pick a song that I like. Then I play through the whole song, as slowly as necessary, to get most of the notes right. Stop a moment to reflect on whether I like the way it sounds, or not. If not, pick a different tune. If I like the tune, or arrangement, I continue on by picking out any tricky parts, not more than a measure or two at a time. Play the measure slow enough to get the fingering right. Then go back two measures and play through the rough part. Then go back four measures and play through the rough part. Then go back to the beginning of the section and play through the rough part. Then, take it from the top and play through the whole piece. If another rough spot pops up, repeat the procedure. Disregard tempo - strive for accuracy. Eventually, depending on the player's technical ability, the song or piece will be learned.

Notice I said, depending on the player's technical ability.

I had formal training for the saxophone, and had played professionally for over forty years. My school band teachers both used the "measure minus, two measures, four measures, section, and from the top method" for private lessons as well as working with the jazz band. Years later, when I played with other jazz musicians, we used the same method to tighten up songs in the group. If a song can't be learned, using this method, to the point of being able to play through in it's entirety, the piece is probably beyond the player's technical ability.
I feel there is little to be gained by attempting to play a piece that is beyond your technical ability. Yes, you want to improve, but this comes gradually by playing pieces you can actually play. And by studying scales and fingerings.

Some of the songs I play on the piano have taken weeks to get to a point where I'm pleased with how they sound. Some have taken months, maybe years, to get to where they are comfortable, where I don't even think about the technical aspects, they just sort of flow out and I can sit back and listen, maybe improvise, and enjoy playing. And, with those tunes, others can enjoy what I'm playing, too.

I don't have a regimented practice schedule; don't keep a record of my progress; don't use a notebook, don't use an app. I have no goals to learn a set number of pieces. I sit down at the piano when I feel like it, and play for as long as a little as I want. When I played regulars gigs, I found that practice actually reduced my performance energy. I don't want my interest in the piano to feel like work or like I'm studying for an exam. There are two reasons I play music - to exercise my creativity and pure enjoyment of the sound I make.

Strictly speaking her main instrument is viola, not violin. (People with soloist ambitions tend to choose violin over viola, but most teachers and orchestra professionals don't aspire to solo careers and prefer not spending their lives on tour like so many soloists or they are simply team players rather than individualists.) Her primary calling seems to be teaching, not performing, though she has recorded some albums and played in professional orchestras. She has also studied neuroscience, but not performed or published any studies of her own afaik. She spent the past decade as university viola professor consecutively at two different universities, but her current position is as a teacher of the science to practice at the New England Conservatory of Music.

I don't think the best performers are usually the best teachers or communicators, and I applaud the New England Conservatory for having a position with a meta level approach to music practice. While I agree that several practice methods she recommends are in no way new, I don't know of anyone else who has gone through recent neurological studies on learning, as well as experiments on athletes, surgeons in training etc and applied the findings to instrument practice and published a book in layman terms. But it won't suit everybody. I'm guessing she's mainly targeting people like her own previous students who are aiming for professional careers and need to make the most of their practice time in order to be competitive in auditions etc.

Ithaca Quite possibly the answer is that she's just not as musically talented as they are. (I've not heard her play much, nor Anne-Sophie Mutter.) Regardless, her practice and performance coaching work doesn't imply that anyone who uses it can make themselves the equal of the best artists in the world; it just helps teach people how they can learn and perform better - more efficiently, and more solidly.

This is in line with the self image she has reported in podcasts I've heard. I think she started relatively late and wasn't taught any of the practice strategies she much later discovered as a conservatory student or even later as a teacher or orchestra player. For us mere mortal, non-prodigy music lovers it's often easier to find actionable advice from a teacher who has taught lots of different students of varying abilities, (Dr Molly Gebrian started by teaching Suzuki children before teaching university students.) teachers who have spent their life thinking about pedagogy and found out several strategies that work for many, compared to a famous performer who may only be able to share their own individual path, which may not be at all realistic for someone without their talents.

candela Strictly speaking her main instrument is viola, not violin. (People with soloist ambitions tend to choose violin over viola,

This is admittedly OT, but.... viola.
It has only come into its own as a solo instrument rather recently. Tertis, then Primrose, initiated the change (I have a kind of double book co-authored by Menuhin for violin, and Primrose for viola.) The problem was that the viola was treated like a "giant violin, where you have to press harder", and with that disrespect, someone who wasn't fast enough or virtuosic enough was dumbed down to this "giant violin" which they tried to play like a violin, but more forcefully. Primrose was one of the "fathers of the viola", both urging that more music be written for viola, and also setting out viola technique. Bowing is different. Even some fingering choices are different. If you hear the Bach Chaconne played on viola by a well trained violist, that is an unforgettable experience.

When starting to write I thought this was off topic, but actually it is not, since it involves teaching and what is taught.

Meanwhile everything you wrote throughout is totally on point.

In any case this is not too OT, this is what I'm listening to right now (for the first time) and am mesmerized!

JB_PT I'm in a Facebook piano group. A retired lady who recently returned to playing asked for help with a difficult section of a piece she was trying to learn. She mentioned that she was frustrated because she had repeated it for 5 hours straight and it just wasn't getting any better.

5 hours of practice shows that this person has plenty of motivation and determination. If you send her my way I might be able to help her gratis on that section. Contact form on my website https://andrewkraus.com is an easy way to do that.

PianoMonk I'm inclined to look at her "philosophy" as a solution in search of a problem.

I think that there was a problem to start with. She practised long hours and she struggled with mistakes. With her new way of practising, she learns more pieces in a shorter time, and she is more solid.

I don't know why you are so edgy about Molly. She has been very generous in sharing her insights on Youtube and the pdf with practice tips.

candela but not performed or published any studies of her own afaik.

Not on her own, but a quick googling found one in which she is the second name: The role of musical development in early language acquisition: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-45821-023

PianoMonk Molly is a violinist. Right? If she has found the "magical formula" for practice and performance, why isn't she playing along side of players like Joshua Bell or Anne-Sophie Mutter?

Even if she found the "magical formula" for practice and performance, she started late and didn't have the same level of talent as them. Joshua Bell etc. probably had similarly effective if not more effective methods to learn, and also started implementing them when they were maybe 7 years old.

Also, some people are just "wired" differently. If you really want to know what the fastest way to learn might be, you could look at something like the Gieseking-Liemer method. But most people couldn't do that, and the reason Gieseking himself could use that method as effectively as he did was because he had a near-photographic memory. Molly Gebrian's ideas, on the other hand, are more widely applicable. Some of the stuff she brings to the table is new and interesting.

Animisha I don't know why you are so edgy about Molly.

I agree, Animisha. A lot of people get quite “prickly” about her and I can’t figure out why.

Also, there’s no reason to look down at someone because they decide to make teaching their occupation rather than performing. Teaching is an important activity (not just in music but across all disciplines) and good teaching makes a positive difference for students.

Also, as with the example above of the adult learner who practiced something for 5 hours without getting it, a lot of adult musicians are desperate for ways to make their (often limited) practice time more efficient and effective.

Maybe we’re all trying to make up for lost time (after hearing so many times that you had to start piano in early childhood!) but if Molly’s approach helps people do that, it’s all to the good imo.

ShiroKuro Also, there’s no reason to look down at someone because they decide to make teaching their occupation rather than performing. Teaching is an important activity (not just in music but across all disciplines) and good teaching makes a positive difference for students.

Amen! And good teaching in particular, as unfortunately many teachers are neither as knowledgeable about learning nor as devoted to teaching as Gebrian appears to be. I hope ideas from books like this find their ways to teachers and thus indirectly to young students. Many of us have probably had one or more teachers whose only practice advice was to practice for x minutes per day or such. Being taught good and engaging practice or study habits from an early age is often not treated with the priority it deserves. (E g I don't remember being given a single lesson on study technique until in university.)