iternabe This reminds me of a video by Dr. Shijun Wang on how to learn new pieces. He suggests one way to help relieve performance anxiety is to learn the end of a piece of music first, then work backwards. This way, the latter part of the pieces gets more practice. Then during a performance, you become more and more comfortable as the playing progresses.

Yes! I first learned this idea from posts on PW (and I'm pretty sure people there were bringing in these ideas from Piano Street).

The idea is that as you move through the piece, you getting to sections that you've played more, rather than getting to sections that you've played less. And in a performance situation, that helps a lot!

I have gotten away from this style as well, but I should probably get back to it, or at least incorporate it partially... Esp with one piece I'm working on right now, where the whole piece is almost the same level of difficulty except for the very last part (the second and third to last measures)...

Somehow it takes a lot of discipline to practice this way... it's the same with truly incorporating Gebrian's ideas. It's just easier to start at the beginning and play through.. 😅

    Animisha I purchased her book "way back when", because I am interested in the inner workings of the brain, and of course I'm interested in music. So buying her book was a "no-brainer", ok, "music-brainer", haha. This was well before it even started to get discussed in this forum - in fact I bought it because of a post in PW.

    So I read her book. To me most of it sounded like a lot of common sense, wrapped in some "this is what scientific research says". I think that if someone were expecting a magic pill that would make learning music miraculously super easy or streamlined, then they would probably be disappointed. There simply is no such thing - because in the end, getting our fingers on the keys is what really counts. I have a feeling that's what you were getting at in your post, Nightowl?

    Speaking just for myself, I haven't actually tried her suggestions. I'm just not into all this micromanaging etc and I continued to do what I did before: just sit down at the piano whenever I feel like it, play whatever I feel like and how long I'm in the mood for. That way I can enjoy my hobby without stress. I don't really care if my progress is slower than it could be... as long as I'm having a good time 😃 Because not having a good time leads to quitting pretty quickly - so I'd rather go a little slower than I might potentially be capable of, IF it means I'll be continuing 😁

          Pallas Random or interleaved practice. [...] I think you can only do this style when the pieces are solid

          For me, and obviously this is different for you, towards the end of my practising, I don't do any random practice any more because I need to know very, very well what comes next. Of course, I do focus on problem spots and practise just those spots, but I need to get the whole picture very clear for me.
          Especially with pieces like the Minuet in G or in G minor, where there is no logical story that I can discern, but I go from now this to now that, it is very important to me to really know what is ahead of me.

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            ShiroKuro I used to always start with the hardest parts first. And certainly, it is ideal to spend more time overall on the harder parts.

            But I don't know if it's because my pieces got harder, or for some other reason, but sometimes I find that I have more success if I start with an easier section of the piece. That works esp well when the hard parts seem just too hard. By working on the music in the context of easier passages, then, when I move on to the harder section, it often goes better.

            I also try to start with the most difficult sections, but in some pieces, there is a first and easiest phrase that is an introduction, and the other phrases are variations on that introduction. For instance, a tango that I am learning. In that case, it is much easier, and more natural, to learn the introduction first.

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              iternabe He suggests one way to help relieve performance anxiety is to learn the end of a piece of music first, then work backwards. This way, the latter part of the pieces gets more practice.

              It is a great idea, but it doesn't work always - for instance, because the end is based on a theme that is presented in an easier way earlier in the piece, and it is better to learn that theme first.
              However, even if one starts learning a piece from the beginning to the end, it is easy to ensure that you practise the ending the most. Just, yes, practise the end the most! 😎

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                Sophia Speaking just for myself, I haven't actually tried her suggestions. I'm just not into all this micromanaging etc and I continued to do what I did before: just sit down at the piano whenever I feel like it, play whatever I feel like and how long I'm in the mood for. That way I can enjoy my hobby without stress.

                Sophia, I totally get you. If I would by happy practising and not have struggled so much with mistakes, I would have done the same. As long as it works for you, of course you do as you please!

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                    Animisha If I would by happy practising and not have struggled so much with mistakes, I would have done the same.

                    I think to some degree I'm like Bart... instinctively I already applied some - but definitely not all - of her suggestions. So after reading the book and nodding a few times, I decided it's probably more stress to try and live by it, than just continue the way I was.

                    That's why I'm surprised when I was informed that only the ones who drank the KoolAid were allowed to participate, because last I knew this is a forum, not a cult 😄

                    But really interesting what you said about it helping you make less mistakes.

                    Animisha And it was Molly who finally opened my eyes to this. Time very well spent. 😊

                    Exactly! That's why I read and participated in this thread, because I love reading those insights. It means that for you the book wasn't just a lot of hype, but something beneficial in the long run. Seven months into a method and still going strong means that it's working for you, rather than hinder your pleasure or progress.

                          Pallas The first tip is to keep going when you feel frustrated.

                          Pallas Reflecting on feelings of frustration, realizing you need help to solve a problem, and asking for help is the very best use of resources.

                          I really agree with you Pallas!

                          Now of course this is just a quick tip from Molly, but I would say: when you feel frustrated, sit down, have a cup of coffee or tea, (or a glass of water) and do some thinking. What is the source of your frustration? Is the piece that you work with too difficult for you? Have you started to fall back into less efficient practice habits? Are you mentally overloaded by your job, your family and would you need a break from the piano?

                          After all, most of us are not pros, and sometimes it is better not to practise like a pro, but just like a happy amateur.

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                              10 days later

                              I am going through our video again - and I now realise there is one way in which I differ from Molly's teachings.

                              The question in the video was: "What if each small spot is 90% success rate, but when you put the whole piece together each time you fail in different places, so that the total success rate is 50%?"
                              Molly's answer is: "First of all, you need to get a 100% success rate for each spot, otherwise you'll never be solid in the whole entire thing."

                              So far, I am totally with her.

                              But to fix the problem, she recommends lots of random practice, particularly "performance testing using random practice methods".

                              And for me, that doesn't work.
                              If I can play the spots correctly, but I make mistakes in playing through, one of the main causes is that I don't have the piece connected well enough in my head. It is as if I every time need to get into the right track, and sooner or later I miss a track. And yes, I do vary my sections. They can be shorter or longer, and the transitions can be at the beginning, middle or end of a section.

                              For me, instead of more random section practice, I need to play through - particularly "performance testing - play through". Then I make a notice of the mistakes that I make, or, the mistakes that I almost made, fix them, and once again, a "performance testing - play through".

                              I do this "performance testing - play through" also in the early stages, when I still play a piece at a very slow tempo. In this way, I learn what comes next on a much more profound level than when I do random sections.

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                                Animisha The question in the video was: "What if each small spot is 90% success rate, but when you put the whole piece together each time you fail in different places, so that the total success rate is 50%?"

                                That question was from me 😳. As Dr. Gebrian was giving her answer, I realized how my wording failed to convey what I really had in mind. This happen to me a lot when trying to ask short questions. And English being my second language certainly does not help.

                                What I meant by "success" is more like perfection. So that 10% failure can be 2 kinds: slip of finger (or mind), and less that perfect articulation or dynamics. As an example, if I play a phrase 10 times, I had one slip of finger (wrong note) that I immediately realize. I also know it's a random mistake, it is unlike to happen again the same way, and I won't be committing any bad habit to memory. At that point, I let myself move on from that phrase. I may come back later to it, though.

                                Now the 50% success rate when putting the whole piece together. Again I am thinking perfection. There still can be occasional slip of finger/mind. There is always more unsatisfying control of dynamics - I find this a lot harder for my beginner skill. And because the playthrough is longer, chances of these kind of small imperfection popping up here and there randomly makes getting a perfect recording in one take even harder, thus the 50% success (or fail) rate. According to Dr. Gebrian, when this happens I should abandon playthrough and just go back and practice sections or phrases. I rather make a case-by-case judgement, mainly based on whether the fail or small imperfection is repeatable or not. A slip of finger or mind? That's random. I will keep play though and just keep my concentration better. A slightly off articulation or dynamic? I can pay more attention the next time in the playthrough and see if I can change that. But if any mistakes happens the exact same way twice, then my alarm bell rings and I stop and do that bar in isolation until I figure out what's wrong and what's the fix.

                                Both kind of errors I mentioned, slip of finger and imprecise dynamics, are most likely a sign of deficiencies in fundamental technique. But then for adult beginners like me, I feel improvement in technique cannot be expected to happen in a very short time span. So rigidly adhering to standards could just stall my progress to the point that might demand the kind of perseverance and grit that I am not sure I have.

                                    I would like to add if the goal is to bring a piece to performance ready standard, then I agree 100% with Dr. Gebrian's direction.