A friend asked me about her daughterā€™s art teacher who told her if she doesnā€™t have an explanation for the point of view of her excellent drawings, they are not art. Iā€™d consider this a clumsy way of trying to teach, but I could see a possible intent.

Art vs illustration. Art can be well executed - and demonstrate an underlying message. Illustration may just be an exercise in skillfully rendering imagery, just for the sake of the execution.

Relating to music performance? Does musical art have to negotiate with others, or is the development of personal competencies a valid pursuit of its own? Iā€™d say of course it is, and performing for others is a different exercise entirely. Again, very similar to cooking for oneself vs holding a dinner party. They are separate activities that of course would inform each other, but are not required of the same person.

Iā€™ve known people who perform publicly frequently enough that they no longer desire to play alone. They can be two different activities.

Perpetual Beginner, Yamaha P115

    Pallas My teacher says we make art to connect with other people

    Ooh, I like that!

    Re playing for people ā€œwho might judge,ā€ I started to feel at some point that other musicians generally make the most sympathetic audience.

        macuaig performing for others is a different exercise entirely

        Yes, performing is its own animal, IMO anyway!

          ShiroKuro So that's where the question is. Why perform?

          The best reason I can come up with is if you can answer yes to the question of will your performance provide pleasure to the person hearing it (and if you have any interest in pleasing other people, which not everyone does). Thus it's the performer's own self assessment of their playing, and of the listener's expectations, that determines whether to perform or not.

          Some people express belief in a "need" or "duty" to perform, but I'm not one of them. I play for myself. I can read a book or watch a movie for my own personal pleasure. Same with piano. At the same time, if someone want to perform, go for it! It's a big tent. There's room for both approaches.

              Stub Some people express belief in a "need" or "duty" to perform, but I'm not one of them

              Right... this is super interesting, because I would not have described myself as someone who has a "need" to perform, and certainly I don't feel a duty.... I'm not good enough for that! šŸ˜›

              But, I am very motivated to perform... I just can't quite articulate why. Certainly there's a pedagogical benefit, i.e., I learn a lot and my playing benefits from performing. But I don't think that's really why, it's more just like a nice side benefit rather than a core reason.

              I guess some of it is because of the reasons I suggested at the beginning of this thread

              What are we doing when we play for someone else? Showing them our musical skills? Sharing our love of music in general? Sharing our love of a particular piece? Trying to create an emotional/musical experience for the other person?

              But I feel like there's something else, that I just haven't articulated yet...

              So maybe another part of it is what you said,

              if you can answer yes to the question of will your performance provide pleasure to the person hearing it (and if you have any interest in pleasing other people, which not everyone does). Thus it's the performer's own self assessment of their playing, and of the listener's expectations, that determines whether to perform or not.

              Maybe it's like why we do anything for other people, we hope it makes them happy, and we feel good doing something for others?

                  Pallas My teacher says we make art to connect with other people

                  ShiroKuro Ooh, I like that!

                  So do I!

                  Music for me is the most wonderful form of non-verbal communication. I want to tell a story, one that cannot be told in words. I want people to be moved, fascinated, sometimes comforted and sometimes unsettled. If after a concert somebody compliments me on my technique, I know I have failed. But if somebody says that the music made them dream, or it made them cry, or it filled them with joy, then I'm happy.

                      ShiroKuro Maybe it's like why we do anything for other people, we hope it makes them happy, and we feel good doing something for others?

                      Yes, and the second part rings true--gift giving often does as much, or more, for the gift-giver than for the giftee. It makes us feel good giving of our own free will.

                      Thinking about this some more since I posted yesterday, it occurs to me that performing in front of others also satisfies the showman in us (I'm thinking in very general terms and not about anybody here!!). We like our moment in the spotlight and a little bit of praise. This is definitely not to say it's showing off, but rather that most people do appreciate having their egos stroked now and then. For those who don't perform, they get it in other ways.

                      ShiroKuro, how strong is your need to perform? My teacher performs a lot, in some small things and in some major undertakings. I suspect there is a level of compulsion present in her need to perform. Injury has forced her to cut back some and it is very hard on her.

                          Pallas ā€œHis hands were like butterflies.ā€ Many thanks for that. You have made my week.

                          Perpetual Beginner, Yamaha P115

                            Stub ShiroKuro, how strong is your need to perform?

                            I mean, it that strong.. I wouldnā€™t call it a need..

                            But performing has always been part of what I envision as part of my piano activitiesā€¦ almost like itā€™s a given.

                            And it obviously matters to me enough that I make efforts to do itā€¦

                            But I wasnā€™t playing for others all throughout the pandemic, and I certainly didnā€™t stop playing. So not performing isnā€™t something that is upsetting or somethingā€¦

                            Itā€™s hard articulate.

                            I think maybe itā€™s more social than I realizedā€¦

                              I've been thinking about this a lot since the thread started. I've had some long-winded responses in mind, but I think I can distill it down to the following.

                              1) For whatever nature and/or nurture reasons, my brain is wired to respond to music in an intensely positive way.
                              2) Listening to music also evokes a strong desire not only to listen to it but also to create it myself.
                              3) HOWEVER, I do not enjoy the music itself as much when I am playing alone than when I am listening to it. I shift from audience mode to performer mode, which is mentally very different for me, and not as positive.
                              4) HOWEVER, when I perform for others, those two seem to collapse together in a good way, and I enjoy the music even more than simply listening to it. For whatever personal psychological reasons, the presence of an audience allows me to inhabit the audience mode even while in performer mode, and then some.

                              That's about it. šŸ™‚

                              Enthusiastic but mediocre amateur.

                                TC3 HOWEVER, when I perform for others, those two seem to collapse together in a good way, and I enjoy the music even more than simply listening to it. For whatever personal psychological reasons, the presence of an audience allows me to inhabit the audience mode even while in performer mode, and then some.

                                Thatā€™s awesome!!

                                • TC3 likes this.

                                  Hi ShiroKuro

                                  For me performing for others is secondary to performing with others. The first is a lovely benefit of the second.

                                  Apart from classical lessons and practice, I play in a pop/rock band, a big band and attend a sort of jam night. At the moment the big band is not gigging, it's purely a rehearsal band (though that might change next year). The jam night does one gig a quarter, and although we rehearse weekly the pop/rock band only does 5 -10 gigs a year. Most recently last Thursday, which was a lot of fun. So for all that playing (about 90 rehearsals a year) I get to do about 12 gigs a year.

                                  I was someone who was completely frustrated as a youngster. I could only play what was written in the sheet music, and I wasn't great at reading that in those days. The thrill of playing in a band is something that at one point in my life I never dreamed I'd achieve. It was only when I was about 19 that I found out how to break my reliance on sheet music.

                                  I could quite happily, continue doing what I'm doing without the gigs. It's the interaction with other musicians that is more special to me. I've made life long friends from music, and they are people I've played with, not played for.

                                  Cheers

                                  Simon
                                  All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                                  Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                                    Thatā€™s fantastic @Simonb !

                                    And 12 gigs a year is once a month, thatā€™s a lot!

                                    And I think the social element is really important, and wonderful.

                                    So far, I have found one person here to play with, but our schedules donā€™t match up well so e donā€™t play together as often as Iā€™d like. Hopefully I can find a few more musicians, and a few pianists, to have some more varied musical interactions. Given that weā€™ve only lived here for a year and half though, I think Iā€™m doing ok. šŸ™‚

                                      Hi ShiroKuro

                                      I've only ever played with another Piano/keyboard player once. A chap I used to work with (over 40 years ago) played Piano and we had a few jams together. At the jam night I attend we sometimes have 2 keyboards, but that's so that we can realise an arrangement, so one keyboard might be doing a horn part, and the other Piano.

                                      I've never played classical music with anyone else, and I don't think I want to. For one thing the standard of playing required to play in a classical situation (of whatever type) seems to be so much higher, and secondly I consider it a solo discipline. I think the simple truth is I'm a better non-classical player.

                                      Cheers

                                      Simon
                                      All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                                      Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                                          @Simonb when I mentioned finding other pianists, I didn't mean in order to play duets with them, but rather to be able to listen to other pianists, and have other pianists listen to me -- for example, to have musical parties with different kinds of musicians playing, including other pianists.

                                          Simonb I've never played classical music with anyone else, and I don't think I want to.

                                          I don't play classical music either, and I do generally play solo music. But there are lots of (non-classical) pieces that are written for piano + violin or piano + cello, and that's I'm aiming for when I play with string players.

                                            Simonb, your reply is where my mind was going, too.

                                            Performing for others is a step away from playing for one's self. Performing with others is a step in the same direction but continuing onward from performing for others. Almost seems like a logical step. Step 1, then step 2, and then (if you take it), step 3.

                                            Step 2 engages an audience that may only be listening. Step 3 engages other players that will interact with your playing by playing along with you in some way, perhaps even causing you to play something differently because of what they're doing.

                                            It's one reason I enjoy playing in the jazz trio I'm in and also playing in the jazz jam I've been going to for a while now. Though I sometimes do something solo, I like the trio, and for at least some of that, I'm driving. For the jazz jam, other than a solo that I might take during a piece, I am not driving at all, more like trying to keep up. LOL!! There is a challenge there of "sink or swim", which is a little scary at first but then you realize that everybody else is in the same boat as you are and you just start to have fun. The unspoken goal of every jazz jam is a "train wreck", which means "pushing to failure". Good way to grow if your attitude is right.

                                                @Bellyman interesting comments! I don't play jazz, so the ideas of "driving," "train wreck," and "pushing to failure" are all new to me.

                                                Bellyman Step 1, then step 2, and then (if you take it), step 3.

                                                So step 2 is playing for others, and step 3 is playing with others?

                                                That's interesting because I would put it in the reverse order. Step 1 is playing alone, step 2 is playing with others, step 3 is playing for others (whether you're playing on your own or with others in that step 3 part).

                                                Back to the original question, "why perform for others" .... We were at brunch today, on campus. The place has a grand piano and there's always someone playing, with a tip jar out. I'm pretty sure it's always a student from the music school at the uni where I work.

                                                Anyway, I found myself thinking I would love to do that. I currently have about 45 minutes of music ready to go. I could sit there and play, just for one set. I don't care about (or need!) the tips. I would give all the tips to the servers -- or the pianist whose spot I took.

                                                But as I realized I was thinking that, it brought me back to this thread.... where above I believe I said I don't have a "need" to perform.... But I obviously have a pretty strong desire to do so!
                                                I still don't really know why though....
                                                šŸ˜…

                                                    Hi Bellyman

                                                    I've also played in assorted Jazz groups over the decades. A quintet, which only ever did a few gigs and many times in Piano, Vibes & bass trio.

                                                    Here's a video from almost 20 years of a quartet I was in, playing a Jazz standard. Inevitably a wedding gig! I still play with the drummer now. Sadly the Vibes player (Terry) passed away 10 years ago. He's probably the best amateur musician I ever played with.

                                                    I may have posted this before, apologies to anyone if it's a duplicate.

                                                    Cheers

                                                    Simon
                                                    All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                                                    Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                                                        Wow! that was great!!

                                                          Hi ShiroKuro

                                                          That's very kind - thanks.

                                                          In relation to your original question there are two things worth saying about that video:

                                                          1. Almost nobody was listening to us!
                                                          2. I didn't know the gig was being filmed on a camcorder. If I'd have known I'm sure I'd have played much worse. As it was I was just having fun and going for it..... almost like Bellyman said earlier, pushing to the limit.

                                                          Cheers

                                                          Simon
                                                          All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                                                          Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.