Beginner question about pedal timing

iternabe · 2024-08-27T22:00:36+00:00

Here is how I have been taught by Let's Play Piano Methods YouTube channel about pedal timing. At the beginning of pedal mark, in most cases, play the not...

Sophia

Side note but still on the topic of pedaling 😃 The next piece in my book introduces something new: finger pedaling. I got all nervous... I had images like WieWaldi pedaling with his ear:

But then I watched Gale explain it, and it's not quite as scary as all that 😃 Learn something every day!

WieWaldi

Sophia now it makes perfectly sense: we can use two feet and one ear. And the piano has three pedals. 🤟
Can you share Gales video about "finger pedaling"? I just want to see how he bends down.
What is finger pedaling? The only idea I can imagine is to hold down a key longer by changing the fingering. For example the ring finger holds a key, then the thumb is joining and the hand is free to reach something far away

BartK

WieWaldi What is finger pedaling?

Finger pedaling just means that you hold down some notes (usually the bass) with your fingers rather than sustain them with the pedal. It doesn't necessarily require finger switching.

iternabe

WieWaldi Here is a timely video from Grahm Fitch that showed finger pedaling, among other things:

WieWaldi

BartK Isn't this the most normal thing, all we beginner pianists do before we reach out for the pedal?
Ok - someone for sure invented a name for it to make it feel as complicated as hell.

BartK

WieWaldi BartK Isn't this the most normal thing, all we beginner pianists do before we reach out for the pedal?

But finger pedaling doesn't mean that you simply play notes with your fingers. It means specifically that you hold them longer as if they were being sustained by the pedal but without using the pedal. For example, if you have an Alberti bass pattern that goes C-G-E-G you would hold down the C for the whole beat while playing G-E-G. Another example is playing an arpeggio while holding down all the previous notes of the arpeggio. This way you sustain the notes while avoiding muddiness. It is useful sometimes.

Sophia

This is the notation my book uses:

WieWaldi

The first note in bass staff is a full note, meaning to hold it down the entire bar length, anyway. This is a good example why the pedal marking is superfluous.

Sophia

I think the pedal is still needed for the right hand, so that those notes sound nice too. I haven't started that piece yet though 😄

What I like about following all three method books: they don't cover everything at once. In the first two books they didn't cover much theory at all, because they know we beginners just like to touch the piano 👇🏽 And our brains are not ready yet for super complicated techniques, we struggle enough just reading the score, finding the notes and making our fingers obey.

But now the third Alfred book is starting to apply the thumbscrews... circle of fifths, more chords, more scales, diminished 7th chords and soon arpeggios. Another buzz word everyone keeps telling us they are so important... but I was patient and waited for Alfred to introduce all those things. That gives me time to also do stuff I like, such as the blues course 😃

Actually I am really loving this third book though. Towards the end it will allow us to play some actual music, such as original versions of the first movement of Moonlight Sonata and Fur Elise. But I am starting to think that my first love might become lighter music such as blues and easy listening... it's too early to tell still.

Either way, we need to continue to learn - and this forum is really helpful in providing both tips and motivation 🙂

WieWaldi

Sophia diminished 7th chords

Fuuu**** - Christian has only introduced a half-dimished one so far. (D minor seven flat five). I start to feel like I am lagging behind.

Sophia circle of fifths

Look up where your 12-bar blues chords are inside this circle. And if he starts more advanced chord progressions, look up again where they are located. This tells quite you something about what sounds good or bad.

iternabe

I have another question about pedal timing. It's about "play the notes first, then push down the pedal". The timing of pedal down, does it have to be immediately after the notes? Would pedal down leisurely be a problem? For example, in measure 1, 6, and 8, what could be the problem, if any, if I push the pedal down on the 2nd beat?

Of course, for measure 4, the pedal needs to be down before the second 8th note - I can see the logic behind that.

Ithaca

iternabe The timing of pedal down, does it have to be immediately after the notes? Would pedal down leisurely be a problem?

Leisurely pedal is not a problem per se, as long as you pedal down before the next note you need to catch + you don't lift your fingers too soon.

If you observe the mechanism in an acoustic piano, the only thing the standard sustain pedal does is lift up all the dampers. In an acoustic, as soon as you lift the dampers, all the strings - even the ones you're not pressing - are free to resonate, so you'll also get what I think of an aural shimmer (or sound aura, or sound cloud, depending on my mood). And the quality of that sound depends on the piano. I don't know if your digital will do that; mine certainly didn't, but it was a very elderly Roland. (It was the first of the really good actions, but the native sound was meh.)

Also, the sound quality you get w/no pedal varies across the octaves (and depends on the piano) - the upper octaves of the treble aren't damped, etc., and the level of (what I think people call) dryness can change depending on the range. So whether you want to pedal immediately after you play the note, or wait till later, depends on the sound you're trying to get, which can depend on the note(s) that you're playing. On my piano, if I'm holding 3+ notes in the bass, I prefer to pedal later if possible to keep the sound a bit more restrained/cleaner, whereas in the treble I'm much less finicky.

Pallas

iternabe I just played a little of the piece on my acoustic piano.

If you press a key, that key's damper is lifted off the strings, allowing it to resonate.

If you press the regular sustain pedal after you press a key and before you release it, all the dampers across the piano lift, and that one note is sustained, with a little bit of sympathetic resonance.

If you press the pedal to hold the first note, any other note that is struck sustains, and gets the full resonance of all the strings in the piano. It sounds bigger, fuller, and more resonant. This is why you need to release the pedal and press it again immediately when you change chords, to prevent dissonant chords. If you don't pedal at the marks, you could get a mushy sound or uneven sound.

The pedaling mark is telling you where the ~~composer~~ arranger/editor wants which kind of resonance from the instrument.

MRC

iternabe have another question about pedal timing. It's about "play the notes first, then push down the pedal". The timing of pedal down, does it have to be immediately after the notes? Would pedal down leisurely be a problem?

No, it would not be a problem, and I would even encourage it. Get used to controlling the pedal smoothly, with sensitivity. Here's what I wrote earlier in this thread:

MRC One really important thing: once you have lifted the pedal, you do not need to depress it again immediately. Many pianists get into the habit of making a very fast up-down movement at each harmony change. There are two drawbacks to doing this:

If you depress the pedal again too soon, you may not give the dampers the time to completely stop the vibrations of the strings. This muddies the sound.

Depressing the pedal very fast can be noisy. in the worst cases, you can hear the pianist stamp on the pedal.

At a particular place, try depressing the pedal sooner or later, faster or slower. What difference does it make? Listen, always listen: let your ears guide your pedalling!

And do try the Handel piece you posted with no pedal at all. How does it sound? Why did the editor add the pedal at those specific moments?

WieWaldi

Ithaca In an acoustic, as soon as you lift the dampers, all the strings - even the ones you're not pressing - are free to resonate, so you'll also get what I think of an aural shimmer (or sound aura, or sound cloud, depending on my mood). And the quality of that sound depends on the piano. I don't know if your digital will do that; mine certainly didn't, but it was a very elderly Roland.

Today's Kawai digitals simulate all other strings resonating, too. It is most present, if I use the Upright Piano Sample, but also works on the Grands.

iternabe

Ithaca If you observe the mechanism in an acoustic piano, the only thing the standard sustain pedal does is lift up all the dampers. In an acoustic, as soon as you lift the dampers, all the strings - even the ones you're not pressing - are free to resonate, so you'll also get what I think of an aural shimmer (or sound aura, or sound cloud, depending on my mood). And the quality of that sound depends on the piano. I don't know if your digital will do that; mine certainly didn't, but it was a very elderly Roland. (It was the first of the really good actions, but the native sound was meh.)

Today I tested my Roland FP-30X's built-in sound engine, and I'm surprised it actually does have sympathetic resonance. If hold down C2 silently, strike C3 then release (no pedal), the C2 will ring for quite a while as it remains held down. Same if I hold down G2 then strike C3, although the resonance will be weaker. I used to think sampled digital piano sound engine cannot do sympathetic resonance, and that would be one big reason to use modeled sound engine such as Pianoteq. Well, technology has apparently advanced that even mid-entry level DP now have this feature.

BartK

Pallas The pedaling mark is telling you where the composer wants which kind of resonance from the instrument.

Well, the composer in this case is Handel, who knew nothing about the piano pedal because it wasn't invented yet. 😉 The pedal marks are an editorial addition.

Usually, pedal marks are a suggestion anyway, even when the composer wrote them.

/end nitpicking mode

BartK

On a digital piano this isn't always clear but on an accoustic there is a big difference in sound because of the resonance of all the open strings when you lift the pedal. The piece tempo direction is "Majestically", which means you're trying to get this big resonant sound with all the strings open. Nothing bad is going to happen if you don't press the pedal immediately but it's not going to sound as majestic. On a good piano you should be able to hear the difference.

Pallas

BartK On a digital piano this isn't always clear

I also checked my piano's silent system out of curiosity. The difference is still really clear! But I concede that digital pianos will differ in pedaling verisimilitude!

iternabe

BartK I did not show the second page of the score - it is essentially the same as page 1 but forte in dynamics. Pedal does make the sound quite more majestic in forte.

What confuses me a bit is the opening dynamics is piano. The pedal effect there seems to me more for legato than for resonance when playing soft? However I do feel in measure 4 the pedal makes the bass register quite a bit more sonorous even played soft.

One more question, if the goal is to make the sound more majestic, would pedal down before the opening note in measure one even better?

BTW although I am on a digital piano, I am using Pianoteq which models the pedal effect quite realistically.

Pallas

BartK Nitpick all you want. I rewrote my comment a million times because I was afraid I would get the mechanism part wrong and didn't even see the composer! For this piece, certainly the arranger put in the pedal marks.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with using the pedal to get the effect we want, if we know what to do to make it sound the way we want, and if the piano is sensitive to the difference.

BartK

iternabe One more question, if the goal is to make the sound more majestic, would pedal down before the opening note in measure one even better?

Yes, it's quite common to have the pedal down before playing the first note. Moreso in romantic music than things like this but you can experiment.

I agree with MRC - experiment, listen very carefully, and try to figure out what sounds good. This is excellent advice in general and will have a great impact on your progress. I think listening critically is one of the most important skills you can develop.

Ithaca

iternabe What confuses me a bit is the opening dynamics is piano. The pedal effect there seems to me more for legato than for resonance when playing soft?

If you are thinking that “piano” is inconsistent with the majestic direction - imagine you are standing at the top of a fjord in the dead of winter as the sun comes up. Total silence, but still majestic. And even if very quiet, you can hold the notes just a smidge longer - stately, majestic, and quiet. 🙂

iternabe

I suppose one reason that make me ask this latest question is some suggestion I got for pedaling when changing chords - that between chords, the pedal needs to remain up for enough time so that the previous chord complete dies out before the pedal can go down again. Of course there is no changing pedaled chords here. I was just wondering if not rushing the pedal down is a good thing to think about.

Pallas

iternabe I love all your questions, even though I can't answer them. I want to say it depends on how you want the piece to sound, versus how baroque music is usually interpreted by people more educated than I am (that doesn't take a lot) want to hear it.

I agree that there's no "always stomp that pedal immediately after the note you want to sustain," though. I think it's probably good for us beginners to have a starting-point way of using the pedal, then it gets more nuanced later, but I'm never going to be the one who says it's too soon to wonder about any of this stuff. I wonder too.

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