Beginner question about pedal timing

iternabe · 2024-08-27T22:00:36+00:00

Here is how I have been taught by Let's Play Piano Methods YouTube channel about pedal timing. At the beginning of pedal mark, in most cases, play the not...

keystring

Actually finding videos was harder, because that's not the view we usually get to see. I was looking for a particular one but can't find it.

Horowitz we only see in the beginning. His left foot goes to different places. How do we stay balanced on the tripod which is our seat and two feet while also doing delicate things with the pedal?

This camera has a static view so we can see feet throughout. Mostly his feet are over the pedal because pedal is so frequent. At 12:49 when the other pianist has a long solo passage, his feet go to the floor.

Mozart - more like the kind of music you're playing - pedal continually used for subtle shading, so foot stays over the pedal.

I don't know if this gives any insights or feel.

JB_PT

iternabe BTW The sustain pedal I have for my digital piano has fairly good resistance. And I have read that on acoustic piano it is possible to adjust the pedal tension so that just resting the full weight of the foot on the pedal (ankle on the floor of course) would not push it down.

This is true (except for "ankle on the floor" 😊). The angle of the foot matters a lot too. I have an acoustic and it's on caster cups. My pedals are 3 inches from the floor. This was a huge adjustment when it was new. I had to get a little platform to rest my heel on, and I had to try about 10 pairs of shoes (and many pedal tension adjustments) to finally get things dialled in. The only shoes that work are a pair of wedge sandals with a 2" heel. These allow me to rest my foot on the pedal without it moving. With other shoes, I had to hold my foot up a little, and after 30+ min of playing I would feel a very uncomfortable strain/fatigue in my shin. With my previous piano this was never even something I had to think about...the pedals were very close to the floor.

iternabe

JB_PT This is true (except for "ankle on the floor" 😊).

Oops, meant to say “heel on the floor”. Must had too much coffee today LOL

WieWaldi

JB_PT I have an acoustic and it's on caster cups. My pedals are 3 inches from the floor.

I have my digital cabinet on shock absorvers (one inch higher) to dampen impact sound, so the people living the floor under me won't hear anymore my playing noise. This little extra inch was already very uncomfortable for me to pedal. I solved it by attaching a door-mat to a wooden board (60x40cm) under the pedals to have my feet at pedal level again. This works quite well.

And this brings me to another thing I was thinking for quite a while: About height of the keyboard of acoustics and digital cabinets. It seems there is a standard height, isn't it? And this standard was established a long time ago when people where smaller on average. For big people nowadays, the keyboard height could be too low from an ergonomic perspective. Ok, with casters the entire piano can be lifted completely, but then the pedals are lifted off the ground, too. And this makes it uncomfortable to play. AFAIK some companies like Bösendorfer offers modification kits to extend the length of the lyra (don't know the english word for the housing for the rods to the pedals). And indeed I can imagine for a grand piano, this work very well. But what about uprights? Is there a way to extend the keyboard-pedal distance at all?

JB_PT

iternabe Oops, meant to say “heel on the floor”.

I know...but it was a funny image to go along with WieWaldi's "pedaling with the ears."

iternabe

JB_PT I bet Ben Laude can do it with ankle on the floor based on the video posted here 😉

Pallas

iternabe I had a heck of a time even seeing him pedal at all and I was really watching.

JB_PT

WieWaldi But what about uprights? Is there a way to extend the keyboard-pedal distance at all?

Not sure - everything is enclosed in the cabinet so it doesn’t seem like it would be practical. I searched this topic when I was first dealing with it and it seemed like the standard solution was a platform similar to mine. I wish this was something the piano store had discussed with me prior to delivery, perhaps even offering solutions. It was quite a shock at first…I could not use the pedals at all because it was so uncomfortable.

Sophia

Side note but still on the topic of pedaling 😃 The next piece in my book introduces something new: finger pedaling. I got all nervous... I had images like WieWaldi pedaling with his ear:

But then I watched Gale explain it, and it's not quite as scary as all that 😃 Learn something every day!

WieWaldi

Sophia now it makes perfectly sense: we can use two feet and one ear. And the piano has three pedals. 🤟
Can you share Gales video about "finger pedaling"? I just want to see how he bends down.
What is finger pedaling? The only idea I can imagine is to hold down a key longer by changing the fingering. For example the ring finger holds a key, then the thumb is joining and the hand is free to reach something far away

BartK

WieWaldi What is finger pedaling?

Finger pedaling just means that you hold down some notes (usually the bass) with your fingers rather than sustain them with the pedal. It doesn't necessarily require finger switching.

iternabe

WieWaldi Here is a timely video from Grahm Fitch that showed finger pedaling, among other things:

WieWaldi

BartK Isn't this the most normal thing, all we beginner pianists do before we reach out for the pedal?
Ok - someone for sure invented a name for it to make it feel as complicated as hell.

BartK

WieWaldi BartK Isn't this the most normal thing, all we beginner pianists do before we reach out for the pedal?

But finger pedaling doesn't mean that you simply play notes with your fingers. It means specifically that you hold them longer as if they were being sustained by the pedal but without using the pedal. For example, if you have an Alberti bass pattern that goes C-G-E-G you would hold down the C for the whole beat while playing G-E-G. Another example is playing an arpeggio while holding down all the previous notes of the arpeggio. This way you sustain the notes while avoiding muddiness. It is useful sometimes.

Sophia

This is the notation my book uses:

WieWaldi

The first note in bass staff is a full note, meaning to hold it down the entire bar length, anyway. This is a good example why the pedal marking is superfluous.

Sophia

I think the pedal is still needed for the right hand, so that those notes sound nice too. I haven't started that piece yet though 😄

What I like about following all three method books: they don't cover everything at once. In the first two books they didn't cover much theory at all, because they know we beginners just like to touch the piano 👇🏽 And our brains are not ready yet for super complicated techniques, we struggle enough just reading the score, finding the notes and making our fingers obey.

But now the third Alfred book is starting to apply the thumbscrews... circle of fifths, more chords, more scales, diminished 7th chords and soon arpeggios. Another buzz word everyone keeps telling us they are so important... but I was patient and waited for Alfred to introduce all those things. That gives me time to also do stuff I like, such as the blues course 😃

Actually I am really loving this third book though. Towards the end it will allow us to play some actual music, such as original versions of the first movement of Moonlight Sonata and Fur Elise. But I am starting to think that my first love might become lighter music such as blues and easy listening... it's too early to tell still.

Either way, we need to continue to learn - and this forum is really helpful in providing both tips and motivation 🙂

WieWaldi

Sophia diminished 7th chords

Fuuu**** - Christian has only introduced a half-dimished one so far. (D minor seven flat five). I start to feel like I am lagging behind.

Sophia circle of fifths

Look up where your 12-bar blues chords are inside this circle. And if he starts more advanced chord progressions, look up again where they are located. This tells quite you something about what sounds good or bad.

iternabe

I have another question about pedal timing. It's about "play the notes first, then push down the pedal". The timing of pedal down, does it have to be immediately after the notes? Would pedal down leisurely be a problem? For example, in measure 1, 6, and 8, what could be the problem, if any, if I push the pedal down on the 2nd beat?

Of course, for measure 4, the pedal needs to be down before the second 8th note - I can see the logic behind that.

Ithaca

iternabe The timing of pedal down, does it have to be immediately after the notes? Would pedal down leisurely be a problem?

Leisurely pedal is not a problem per se, as long as you pedal down before the next note you need to catch + you don't lift your fingers too soon.

If you observe the mechanism in an acoustic piano, the only thing the standard sustain pedal does is lift up all the dampers. In an acoustic, as soon as you lift the dampers, all the strings - even the ones you're not pressing - are free to resonate, so you'll also get what I think of an aural shimmer (or sound aura, or sound cloud, depending on my mood). And the quality of that sound depends on the piano. I don't know if your digital will do that; mine certainly didn't, but it was a very elderly Roland. (It was the first of the really good actions, but the native sound was meh.)

Also, the sound quality you get w/no pedal varies across the octaves (and depends on the piano) - the upper octaves of the treble aren't damped, etc., and the level of (what I think people call) dryness can change depending on the range. So whether you want to pedal immediately after you play the note, or wait till later, depends on the sound you're trying to get, which can depend on the note(s) that you're playing. On my piano, if I'm holding 3+ notes in the bass, I prefer to pedal later if possible to keep the sound a bit more restrained/cleaner, whereas in the treble I'm much less finicky.

Pallas

iternabe I just played a little of the piece on my acoustic piano.

If you press a key, that key's damper is lifted off the strings, allowing it to resonate.

If you press the regular sustain pedal after you press a key and before you release it, all the dampers across the piano lift, and that one note is sustained, with a little bit of sympathetic resonance.

If you press the pedal to hold the first note, any other note that is struck sustains, and gets the full resonance of all the strings in the piano. It sounds bigger, fuller, and more resonant. This is why you need to release the pedal and press it again immediately when you change chords, to prevent dissonant chords. If you don't pedal at the marks, you could get a mushy sound or uneven sound.

The pedaling mark is telling you where the ~~composer~~ arranger/editor wants which kind of resonance from the instrument.

MRC

iternabe have another question about pedal timing. It's about "play the notes first, then push down the pedal". The timing of pedal down, does it have to be immediately after the notes? Would pedal down leisurely be a problem?

No, it would not be a problem, and I would even encourage it. Get used to controlling the pedal smoothly, with sensitivity. Here's what I wrote earlier in this thread:

MRC One really important thing: once you have lifted the pedal, you do not need to depress it again immediately. Many pianists get into the habit of making a very fast up-down movement at each harmony change. There are two drawbacks to doing this:

If you depress the pedal again too soon, you may not give the dampers the time to completely stop the vibrations of the strings. This muddies the sound.

Depressing the pedal very fast can be noisy. in the worst cases, you can hear the pianist stamp on the pedal.

At a particular place, try depressing the pedal sooner or later, faster or slower. What difference does it make? Listen, always listen: let your ears guide your pedalling!

And do try the Handel piece you posted with no pedal at all. How does it sound? Why did the editor add the pedal at those specific moments?

WieWaldi

Ithaca In an acoustic, as soon as you lift the dampers, all the strings - even the ones you're not pressing - are free to resonate, so you'll also get what I think of an aural shimmer (or sound aura, or sound cloud, depending on my mood). And the quality of that sound depends on the piano. I don't know if your digital will do that; mine certainly didn't, but it was a very elderly Roland.

Today's Kawai digitals simulate all other strings resonating, too. It is most present, if I use the Upright Piano Sample, but also works on the Grands.

iternabe

Ithaca If you observe the mechanism in an acoustic piano, the only thing the standard sustain pedal does is lift up all the dampers. In an acoustic, as soon as you lift the dampers, all the strings - even the ones you're not pressing - are free to resonate, so you'll also get what I think of an aural shimmer (or sound aura, or sound cloud, depending on my mood). And the quality of that sound depends on the piano. I don't know if your digital will do that; mine certainly didn't, but it was a very elderly Roland. (It was the first of the really good actions, but the native sound was meh.)

Today I tested my Roland FP-30X's built-in sound engine, and I'm surprised it actually does have sympathetic resonance. If hold down C2 silently, strike C3 then release (no pedal), the C2 will ring for quite a while as it remains held down. Same if I hold down G2 then strike C3, although the resonance will be weaker. I used to think sampled digital piano sound engine cannot do sympathetic resonance, and that would be one big reason to use modeled sound engine such as Pianoteq. Well, technology has apparently advanced that even mid-entry level DP now have this feature.

« Previous Page Next Page »