Fantastic stuff, thank you 😊 Yes. it's time to start thinking about musicality now. Up to now it was hard enough just to get the dexterity so my fingers would obey... there wasn't much room for anything else. Much like you can't have a toddler solve a 5000 piece puzzle. It's not that I didn't want to, there just wasn't any room in my head for more than just playing the notes ^_^

But now that my fingers are getting a little more used to touching the keys, I think it's time to start working on the rest too. I learned a LOT in this thread alone, and it will definitely give me some pointers going forward with new pieces too. Thank you everybody 🙂

Edit: I just noticed that toddler isn't playing fair! It has one extra finger!!!

Sophia After watching your latest video, I now have a new question about the pedal. Should one leave the right foot always hovering or resting on the sustain pedal, even when they aren't using the pedal?

      Good question! I am curious too. Gale seems to think we should, but I don't leave it there personally. Willing to change my mind on that for sure 😁

      Edit some hours later: I sort of see it like the clutch in a stick shift car. I don't keep my foot on that either unless and until it's needed...

      iternabe Should one leave the right foot always hovering or resting on the sustain pedal, even when they aren't using the pedal?

      I would say mostly yes, unless you want to take a break to rest your foot, or if there is an entire section (say more than 5-10 seconds) which doesn't use the pedal.

        An interesting exercise (which I've done and still do) is to become a foot watcher of good pianists when they play. It's like the feet have a brain just like a pianist's hands seem to have a brain. That may be a good way to answer this question.

          keystring An interesting exercise (which I've done and still do) is to become a foot watcher of good pianists when they play. It's like the feet have a brain just like a pianist's hands seem to have a brain. That may be a good way to answer this question.

          I have to respectfully disagree with this. Every good pianist will tell you to pedal with your ears not your feet.

          At the beginning you should learn the basic pedal technique like WieWaldi describes above but for more advanced usages you just have to experiment and find what sounds good. I do a lot of different things with the pedals - partial pedal to various degrees, partial release, flutter pedal, sometimes engaging una corda to various degrees - but if you asked me exactly when I do it I'd have no clue. It depends on how much resonance has built up from what I play before, the tempo, the mood I'm trying to bring out, etc. Even the accoustics of the room make a difference and I would pedal something slightly differently in my teacher's studio.

          So, IMO watching someone else's feet is not a good idea and you will not be able to replicate what they are doing from their feet alone.

              BartK Every good pianist will tell you to pedal with your ears not your feet.

              I tried very hard, but then I can't see the keyboard, nor the sheet music...

                  Here's what I found to be a convenient way of obtaining the sound that I want by using the pedal: think of pressing on the pedal as a very quick up/down motion on the beat itself. Generally speaking, the amount of downward motion (travel) on the pedal should be the minimum required to obtain the effect you want.

                  WieWaldi 😂😂😂😂😂 I have heard of "playing by ear" but you take the cake 🤣🤣🤣

                    BartK I have to respectfully disagree with this. Every good pianist will tell you to pedal with your ears not your feet.

                    Let's start with what problem we're solving, or what aspect we're addressing. Playing the piano is a synergy of senses, body, instrument, mind etc. and we put our focus where needed. There is a physical side which, if you started right, you don't have to think about. In my case, a few years ago, I had the habit of pushing the pedal very far down and up again, because of the bad piano I started on, and not having been observed. This had other side effects and made faster pedal a strain. My ear was fine - the sound I produced was perfect so the problem wasn't noticed. I retrained the physical motions and think I wrote about that elsewhere.

                    Sophia is asking whether you keep your right foot constantly hovering over the pedal. This is a physical consideration and can also involve things like fatigue or strain. If you have 8 measures without pedal, nobody will hear whether your foot is back on the ground, or hovering. Ear and sound play no role for this. You may be thinking I suggested watching pianists' feet to get an idea of when to pedal. Not so. It was for seeing what people do with their feet.

                    You will see a pianist slide the foot forward to the pedal, slide it back. The left foot might be doing a counterbalancing at times. Just seeing that gliding, and maybe seeing how a foot rests on a pedal without depressing, some of the easy motions, may give a physical feel.

                      I have always been very fascinated by the pedal, I know I mentioned that before 🙂 It's exactly as you guys are saying: watching an advanced pianist play is like the foot has a life entirely on its own - it's incredible! I also agree that you can't learn anything from watching that foot go, because if that was the case, I would have have been a natural yeaaaars ago. As it is, I just started learning how to use it a few months ago and obviously not getting it right at all yet - hence this continuing thread ^_^

                      But it just feels odd to keep that foot ready for action in a piece like that Haydn Serenade because in the entire piece the pedal is only used twice (I'm sure WieWaldi was keen enough to notice I accidentally placed my foot around the 46 seconds mark, then pulled it back without actually using it). It wasn't needed until an entire minute into the piece and it feels weird to keep that foot idly hovering all that time. Or worse, resting on the pedal - if I did that with the car clutch, it would be the fastest way to early gear repairs.

                      But since I am only learning I'm definitely happy to be shown any errors in my thinking because I don't want to be stubborn when I'm wrong 😆 By the sounds of it though it seems that most here are in agreement that for longer periods of time, it is perfectly okay to give the foot a break and slide it backwards from the pedal... so I will continue on that same path 🙂

                        So, I have been leaving my right foot resting on the pedal at all times. I practice about one hour in a session, and I have never felt strain on that foot (ankle or heel) doing it that way.

                        I think I learned this somewhere (couldn't find the source now). I also doubt this is some kind of rigid rule. Experienced players probably would figure what works best from them on how to place that foot. On the other hand, I am not aware of any solid reason against doing so, which makes me wonder if this is a good habit to form early.

                        BTW The sustain pedal I have for my digital piano has fairly good resistance. And I have read that on acoustic piano it is possible to adjust the pedal tension so that just resting the full weight of the foot on the pedal (ankle on the floor of course) would not push it down.

                          Haha yeah I definitely don't have that level of control yet... it's still just an on/off switch for me 😂 And especially on older cars the clutch can be quite moody too... requires quite the coordination with the gas pedal. But I consider that semantics for now 😆

                          Actually finding videos was harder, because that's not the view we usually get to see. I was looking for a particular one but can't find it.

                          Horowitz we only see in the beginning. His left foot goes to different places. How do we stay balanced on the tripod which is our seat and two feet while also doing delicate things with the pedal?

                          This camera has a static view so we can see feet throughout. Mostly his feet are over the pedal because pedal is so frequent. At 12:49 when the other pianist has a long solo passage, his feet go to the floor.

                          Mozart - more like the kind of music you're playing - pedal continually used for subtle shading, so foot stays over the pedal.

                          I don't know if this gives any insights or feel.

                          iternabe BTW The sustain pedal I have for my digital piano has fairly good resistance. And I have read that on acoustic piano it is possible to adjust the pedal tension so that just resting the full weight of the foot on the pedal (ankle on the floor of course) would not push it down.

                          This is true (except for "ankle on the floor" 😊). The angle of the foot matters a lot too. I have an acoustic and it's on caster cups. My pedals are 3 inches from the floor. This was a huge adjustment when it was new. I had to get a little platform to rest my heel on, and I had to try about 10 pairs of shoes (and many pedal tension adjustments) to finally get things dialled in. The only shoes that work are a pair of wedge sandals with a 2" heel. These allow me to rest my foot on the pedal without it moving. With other shoes, I had to hold my foot up a little, and after 30+ min of playing I would feel a very uncomfortable strain/fatigue in my shin. With my previous piano this was never even something I had to think about...the pedals were very close to the floor.

                              JB_PT This is true (except for "ankle on the floor" 😊).

                              Oops, meant to say “heel on the floor”. Must had too much coffee today LOL

                                  iternabe Oops, meant to say “heel on the floor”.

                                  I know...but it was a funny image to go along with WieWaldi's "pedaling with the ears."

                                      JB_PT I bet Ben Laude can do it with ankle on the floor based on the video posted here 😉

                                        JB_PT I have an acoustic and it's on caster cups. My pedals are 3 inches from the floor.

                                        I have my digital cabinet on shock absorvers (one inch higher) to dampen impact sound, so the people living the floor under me won't hear anymore my playing noise. This little extra inch was already very uncomfortable for me to pedal. I solved it by attaching a door-mat to a wooden board (60x40cm) under the pedals to have my feet at pedal level again. This works quite well.

                                        And this brings me to another thing I was thinking for quite a while: About height of the keyboard of acoustics and digital cabinets. It seems there is a standard height, isn't it? And this standard was established a long time ago when people where smaller on average. For big people nowadays, the keyboard height could be too low from an ergonomic perspective. Ok, with casters the entire piano can be lifted completely, but then the pedals are lifted off the ground, too. And this makes it uncomfortable to play. AFAIK some companies like Bösendorfer offers modification kits to extend the length of the lyra (don't know the english word for the housing for the rods to the pedals). And indeed I can imagine for a grand piano, this work very well. But what about uprights? Is there a way to extend the keyboard-pedal distance at all?