Beginner question about pedal timing

iternabe · 2024-08-27T22:00:36+00:00

Here is how I have been taught by Let's Play Piano Methods YouTube channel about pedal timing. At the beginning of pedal mark, in most cases, play the not...

Sophia

I have always been very fascinated by the pedal, I know I mentioned that before 🙂 It's exactly as you guys are saying: watching an advanced pianist play is like the foot has a life entirely on its own - it's incredible! I also agree that you can't learn anything from watching that foot go, because if that was the case, I would have have been a natural yeaaaars ago. As it is, I just started learning how to use it a few months ago and obviously not getting it right at all yet - hence this continuing thread ^_^

But it just feels odd to keep that foot ready for action in a piece like that Haydn Serenade because in the entire piece the pedal is only used twice (I'm sure WieWaldi was keen enough to notice I accidentally placed my foot around the 46 seconds mark, then pulled it back without actually using it). It wasn't needed until an entire minute into the piece and it feels weird to keep that foot idly hovering all that time. Or worse, resting on the pedal - if I did that with the car clutch, it would be the fastest way to early gear repairs.

But since I am only learning I'm definitely happy to be shown any errors in my thinking because I don't want to be stubborn when I'm wrong 😆 By the sounds of it though it seems that most here are in agreement that for longer periods of time, it is perfectly okay to give the foot a break and slide it backwards from the pedal... so I will continue on that same path 🙂

iternabe

Sophia Or worse, resting on the pedal - if I did that with the car clutch, it would be the fastest way to early gear repairs.

Funny that you mentioned that. I just watched a video in which Professor Shijun Wang explained the sustain pedal is like the gas pedal in a car: it's not an on/off switch, and when driving local one rarely step on it fully.

iternabe

So, I have been leaving my right foot resting on the pedal at all times. I practice about one hour in a session, and I have never felt strain on that foot (ankle or heel) doing it that way.

I think I learned this somewhere (couldn't find the source now). I also doubt this is some kind of rigid rule. Experienced players probably would figure what works best from them on how to place that foot. On the other hand, I am not aware of any solid reason against doing so, which makes me wonder if this is a good habit to form early.

BTW The sustain pedal I have for my digital piano has fairly good resistance. And I have read that on acoustic piano it is possible to adjust the pedal tension so that just resting the full weight of the foot on the pedal (ankle on the floor of course) would not push it down.

JB_PT

iternabe BTW The sustain pedal I have for my digital piano has fairly good resistance. And I have read that on acoustic piano it is possible to adjust the pedal tension so that just resting the full weight of the foot on the pedal (ankle on the floor of course) would not push it down.

This is true (except for "ankle on the floor" 😊). The angle of the foot matters a lot too. I have an acoustic and it's on caster cups. My pedals are 3 inches from the floor. This was a huge adjustment when it was new. I had to get a little platform to rest my heel on, and I had to try about 10 pairs of shoes (and many pedal tension adjustments) to finally get things dialled in. The only shoes that work are a pair of wedge sandals with a 2" heel. These allow me to rest my foot on the pedal without it moving. With other shoes, I had to hold my foot up a little, and after 30+ min of playing I would feel a very uncomfortable strain/fatigue in my shin. With my previous piano this was never even something I had to think about...the pedals were very close to the floor.

Sophia

Haha yeah I definitely don't have that level of control yet... it's still just an on/off switch for me 😂 And especially on older cars the clutch can be quite moody too... requires quite the coordination with the gas pedal. But I consider that semantics for now 😆

keystring

Actually finding videos was harder, because that's not the view we usually get to see. I was looking for a particular one but can't find it.

Horowitz we only see in the beginning. His left foot goes to different places. How do we stay balanced on the tripod which is our seat and two feet while also doing delicate things with the pedal?

This camera has a static view so we can see feet throughout. Mostly his feet are over the pedal because pedal is so frequent. At 12:49 when the other pianist has a long solo passage, his feet go to the floor.

Mozart - more like the kind of music you're playing - pedal continually used for subtle shading, so foot stays over the pedal.

I don't know if this gives any insights or feel.

iternabe

JB_PT This is true (except for "ankle on the floor" 😊).

Oops, meant to say “heel on the floor”. Must had too much coffee today LOL

WieWaldi

JB_PT I have an acoustic and it's on caster cups. My pedals are 3 inches from the floor.

I have my digital cabinet on shock absorvers (one inch higher) to dampen impact sound, so the people living the floor under me won't hear anymore my playing noise. This little extra inch was already very uncomfortable for me to pedal. I solved it by attaching a door-mat to a wooden board (60x40cm) under the pedals to have my feet at pedal level again. This works quite well.

And this brings me to another thing I was thinking for quite a while: About height of the keyboard of acoustics and digital cabinets. It seems there is a standard height, isn't it? And this standard was established a long time ago when people where smaller on average. For big people nowadays, the keyboard height could be too low from an ergonomic perspective. Ok, with casters the entire piano can be lifted completely, but then the pedals are lifted off the ground, too. And this makes it uncomfortable to play. AFAIK some companies like Bösendorfer offers modification kits to extend the length of the lyra (don't know the english word for the housing for the rods to the pedals). And indeed I can imagine for a grand piano, this work very well. But what about uprights? Is there a way to extend the keyboard-pedal distance at all?

JB_PT

iternabe Oops, meant to say “heel on the floor”.

I know...but it was a funny image to go along with WieWaldi's "pedaling with the ears."

iternabe

JB_PT I bet Ben Laude can do it with ankle on the floor based on the video posted here 😉

Pallas

iternabe I had a heck of a time even seeing him pedal at all and I was really watching.

JB_PT

WieWaldi But what about uprights? Is there a way to extend the keyboard-pedal distance at all?

Not sure - everything is enclosed in the cabinet so it doesn’t seem like it would be practical. I searched this topic when I was first dealing with it and it seemed like the standard solution was a platform similar to mine. I wish this was something the piano store had discussed with me prior to delivery, perhaps even offering solutions. It was quite a shock at first…I could not use the pedals at all because it was so uncomfortable.

Sophia

Side note but still on the topic of pedaling 😃 The next piece in my book introduces something new: finger pedaling. I got all nervous... I had images like WieWaldi pedaling with his ear:

But then I watched Gale explain it, and it's not quite as scary as all that 😃 Learn something every day!

WieWaldi

Sophia now it makes perfectly sense: we can use two feet and one ear. And the piano has three pedals. 🤟
Can you share Gales video about "finger pedaling"? I just want to see how he bends down.
What is finger pedaling? The only idea I can imagine is to hold down a key longer by changing the fingering. For example the ring finger holds a key, then the thumb is joining and the hand is free to reach something far away

BartK

WieWaldi What is finger pedaling?

Finger pedaling just means that you hold down some notes (usually the bass) with your fingers rather than sustain them with the pedal. It doesn't necessarily require finger switching.

iternabe

WieWaldi Here is a timely video from Grahm Fitch that showed finger pedaling, among other things:

WieWaldi

BartK Isn't this the most normal thing, all we beginner pianists do before we reach out for the pedal?
Ok - someone for sure invented a name for it to make it feel as complicated as hell.

BartK

WieWaldi BartK Isn't this the most normal thing, all we beginner pianists do before we reach out for the pedal?

But finger pedaling doesn't mean that you simply play notes with your fingers. It means specifically that you hold them longer as if they were being sustained by the pedal but without using the pedal. For example, if you have an Alberti bass pattern that goes C-G-E-G you would hold down the C for the whole beat while playing G-E-G. Another example is playing an arpeggio while holding down all the previous notes of the arpeggio. This way you sustain the notes while avoiding muddiness. It is useful sometimes.

Sophia

This is the notation my book uses:

WieWaldi

The first note in bass staff is a full note, meaning to hold it down the entire bar length, anyway. This is a good example why the pedal marking is superfluous.

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