Beginner question about pedal timing

iternabe · 2024-08-27T22:00:36+00:00

Here is how I have been taught by Let's Play Piano Methods YouTube channel about pedal timing. At the beginning of pedal mark, in most cases, play the not...

BartK

Pallas The pedaling mark is telling you where the composer wants which kind of resonance from the instrument.

Well, the composer in this case is Handel, who knew nothing about the piano pedal because it wasn't invented yet. 😉 The pedal marks are an editorial addition.

Usually, pedal marks are a suggestion anyway, even when the composer wrote them.

/end nitpicking mode

Pallas

BartK Nitpick all you want. I rewrote my comment a million times because I was afraid I would get the mechanism part wrong and didn't even see the composer! For this piece, certainly the arranger put in the pedal marks.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with using the pedal to get the effect we want, if we know what to do to make it sound the way we want, and if the piano is sensitive to the difference.

Pallas

BartK On a digital piano this isn't always clear

I also checked my piano's silent system out of curiosity. The difference is still really clear! But I concede that digital pianos will differ in pedaling verisimilitude!

iternabe

BartK I did not show the second page of the score - it is essentially the same as page 1 but forte in dynamics. Pedal does make the sound quite more majestic in forte.

What confuses me a bit is the opening dynamics is piano. The pedal effect there seems to me more for legato than for resonance when playing soft? However I do feel in measure 4 the pedal makes the bass register quite a bit more sonorous even played soft.

One more question, if the goal is to make the sound more majestic, would pedal down before the opening note in measure one even better?

BTW although I am on a digital piano, I am using Pianoteq which models the pedal effect quite realistically.

BartK

iternabe One more question, if the goal is to make the sound more majestic, would pedal down before the opening note in measure one even better?

Yes, it's quite common to have the pedal down before playing the first note. Moreso in romantic music than things like this but you can experiment.

I agree with MRC - experiment, listen very carefully, and try to figure out what sounds good. This is excellent advice in general and will have a great impact on your progress. I think listening critically is one of the most important skills you can develop.

Ithaca

iternabe What confuses me a bit is the opening dynamics is piano. The pedal effect there seems to me more for legato than for resonance when playing soft?

If you are thinking that “piano” is inconsistent with the majestic direction - imagine you are standing at the top of a fjord in the dead of winter as the sun comes up. Total silence, but still majestic. And even if very quiet, you can hold the notes just a smidge longer - stately, majestic, and quiet. 🙂

iternabe

I suppose one reason that make me ask this latest question is some suggestion I got for pedaling when changing chords - that between chords, the pedal needs to remain up for enough time so that the previous chord complete dies out before the pedal can go down again. Of course there is no changing pedaled chords here. I was just wondering if not rushing the pedal down is a good thing to think about.

Pallas

iternabe I love all your questions, even though I can't answer them. I want to say it depends on how you want the piece to sound, versus how baroque music is usually interpreted by people more educated than I am (that doesn't take a lot) want to hear it.

I agree that there's no "always stomp that pedal immediately after the note you want to sustain," though. I think it's probably good for us beginners to have a starting-point way of using the pedal, then it gets more nuanced later, but I'm never going to be the one who says it's too soon to wonder about any of this stuff. I wonder too.

MRC

iternabe have another question about pedal timing. It's about "play the notes first, then push down the pedal". The timing of pedal down, does it have to be immediately after the notes? Would pedal down leisurely be a problem?

No, it would not be a problem, and I would even encourage it. Get used to controlling the pedal smoothly, with sensitivity. Here's what I wrote earlier in this thread:

MRC One really important thing: once you have lifted the pedal, you do not need to depress it again immediately. Many pianists get into the habit of making a very fast up-down movement at each harmony change. There are two drawbacks to doing this:

If you depress the pedal again too soon, you may not give the dampers the time to completely stop the vibrations of the strings. This muddies the sound.

Depressing the pedal very fast can be noisy. in the worst cases, you can hear the pianist stamp on the pedal.

At a particular place, try depressing the pedal sooner or later, faster or slower. What difference does it make? Listen, always listen: let your ears guide your pedalling!

And do try the Handel piece you posted with no pedal at all. How does it sound? Why did the editor add the pedal at those specific moments?

MRC

Here's something interesting: Yeol Eum Son playing the same piece once with pedal and once without. Both beautifully done:

I love it that she pedalled with bare feet, so you can appreciate the subtleties.

Ithaca

MRC I love it that she pedalled with bare feet, so you can appreciate the subtleties.

A bit OT, but - do you all play the piano w/shoes or slippers on at home? I grew up in a bare-feet-only-inside household and I dislike pedaling with shoes. It feels like I’m wearing oven mitts on my feet.

iternabe

MRC I love it that she pedalled with bare feet, so you can appreciate the subtleties.

And she seated in the lotus position for the no-pedal take. Wow! LOL

Sophia

Ithaca do you all play the piano w/shoes or slippers on at home?

Bare feet in the summer, slippers in the winter and socks any time in between 😁

I'm currently going through my old books again. Now that it's super easy to play stuff like the Harp Song and Greensleeves, I can now give the pedal and all other subtleties my fullest concentration 👍👍 Plus it's a nice boost for whenever my moral is getting a little low!

iternabe

Ithaca do you all play the piano w/shoes or slippers on at home?

So far I have only tried socks 😉

Pallas

Ithaca do you all play the piano w/shoes or slippers on at home?

I try not to do anything routinely around the piano because I get too attached and play badly in my lesson. So it's all kind of shoes, bare feet, whatever.

iternabe

@Ithaca @BartK @MRC @Pallas Thank you all for the good suggestions and discussion.

Here is the best I could do today. No pedal cam, but you can sort of tell from my right knee.

BartK

iternabe
That was excellent! The combination of legato and staccato articulations is particularly effective in baroque music and very much in the character of this piece. Great job! 👍

Ithaca

Pallas I try not to do anything routinely around the piano because I get too attached

This is probably a good idea. I can’t remember for sure, but I probably slipped off my shoes as a kid when I had to play at church. And I’m certain I took my shoes off when I was trying out pianos the past few years. (I wear socks then, so no worries about bare feet on someone else’s piano. 😁) But I suspected I’d gone a bit too far when I was unnerved watching a video of some major competition - the shoes just seemed so wrong. Maybe I watched too many Peter Bence videos right before. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Pallas

Ithaca and I'm saying this as a person who found toe marks on the pedal, so I'm playing barefoot a lot, but I try to play with shoes on too. I would never kick my shoes off in a lesson. 🤣

Pallas

Ithaca Maybe I watched too many Peter Bence videos right before.

I'll go shoeless from now on if it helps me play like Peter Bence. 😜

Ithaca

Pallas At risk of being overly risque, I'd take off a lot more than my shoes if it let me play like Peter Bence. 😉 (But in case the universe is listening: please no naked people at my piano. Some lines should not be crossed.)

« Previous Page Next Page »