twocats Thanks, this is very helpful! I think I should "get it right" before I start to mentally associate the chunks with a label. I am currently thinking big sections are A, B, C, and inside them I can do A1, A2, etc for memorization phrases.

I updated the sections and it was definitely the right decision, because I will now start associating each larger section with a letter. I'm up to M by the end 😳 I also added a bunch of smaller chunks for learning. I think the goal while memorizing is to do it one chunk at a time, but once it's solid my goal is to be able to erase all the subsections (K1, K2, etc) and be able to play each letter section (all of K) at will.

This is going to be lots of hard work but I also think there is a lot of payoff to going through this! If I succeed I don't think I will ever "lose" this work and it will be easy to recover even if I put it away for years.

      twocats I updated the sections and it was definitely the right decision, because I will now start associating each larger section with a letter. I'm up to M by the end 😳

      Now thinking I should change it to what SK suggested, this is too many sections to track. I should do A1, A2 for every time the same theme happens. I can use a different color pen to create the subsections for the smaller memorization chunks, because those are temporary.

      I've been solving my "layer selection" issue by making sure I click on the page layer every time before I exit a page, since the memorization chunk layer is more of a "one and done" thing (if you do it right the first time, which I am not).

          twocats Now thinking I should change it to what SK suggested, this is too many sections to track. I should do A1, A2 for every time the same theme happens. I can use a different color pen to create the subsections for the smaller memorization chunks, because those are temporary.

          Done, and I like this so much more! I think this method is the winner. There's really only 3 distinct main sections and two of them are repeated but with variations, and I wanted to represent that in a way that made sense. So I called the main themes A/A1 and B/B1, etc (thought about calling it "Theme" and "Presto" but it felt too wordy, I can easily remember that A means the original theme and B means the Presto), and called the end Coda because that's what everyone calls it rather than to make up a letter name (even though it happens to be C). And instead of more letter names for the different transitions I called it "A1 bridge". I think these will stay in my memory far better than assigning numbers or letters.

          I used a different color marker to break down the chunks for memorization. As I learn these I may erase what I currently have and merge them into bigger phrases. But visually and organizationally this makes so much more sense and should help it get locked into my brain.

              @ShiroKuro

              I just tried a small part of Wishing, to see if it would be different for me with this piece, and I memorize it hands together immediately. It feels best to do it that way because of the rhythm.

                twocats Now thinking I should change it to what SK suggested, this is too many sections to track. I should do A1, A2 for every time the same theme happens. I can use a different color pen to create the subsections for the smaller memorization chunks, because those are temporary.

                Yes, with longer pieces, I think you will want to settle on a system that is manageable... The first longer piece I memorized (this was like, more 20 years ago) I remember I made a story about it, and I labeled each section with descriptive words from the story. So for that piece, instead of rehearsal sections A, B, etc. I had little phrases like "the wind picks up" ... I don't remember now (isn't that ironic!)

                Actually I bet it's been 20 years since I've played it, I should dig it up and see how it goes trying to resurrect it.....

                ETA the reason I brought this up is because that piece was like maybe 7 pages, and I'm guessing your piece, @twocats is longer? Also, pages are less imprtant than the number of measures... I really need to go find the score...

                    ShiroKuro The first longer piece I memorized (this was like, more 20 years ago)

                    😳😳😳😳😳
                    So I checked the ABF recital index. I submitted that to the recital in 2009... I'm pretty I learned it a few years before that... and my recital recording was my old digital piano... ahh memories.... speaking of memories, I will try to remember to dig up this score this weekend and see how it goes.
                    If anyone is curious, it's While the Trees Sleep by David Nevue, here's me and my very digital-sounding digital:
                    https://recitals.pianoworld.com/recital_files/Recital_16/51.%20ShiroKuro%20-%20While%20the%20Trees%20Sleep.mp3

                    And thank you @Sam for the recital index, it's truly amazing!!!

                      twocats Done, and I like this so much more! I think this method is the winner.

                      Oh good!! (I'm reading slow here...) I'm glad you found a system that will work for you.

                        ShiroKuro ETA the reason I brought this up is because that piece was like maybe 7 pages, and I'm guessing your piece, @twocats is longer?

                        It's 10 pages! Actually doing this exercise has already been helpful because it forced me to figure out the exact structure of the piece 🙂

                            Josephine to me, I think Wishing could go either way (memorize HS or HT)...

                            The thing I don't think I could memorize HS is a piece where one voice or melody is distributed across the hands. Wishing is very straightforward in that regard, the melody is fully in the RH and the accompaniment is fully in the LH. They fit nicely together, so HT works work, but I think one could do the HS approach... And I do mean "one" because I'm not going to do it!! 😅

                                twocats It's 10 pages!

                                Yes, that's pretty long to just go A, B, C...

                                But figuring out the structure is exactly how I was benefiting from this approach yesterday... Ok, i'm gonna go practice before it gets too late here! 😃

                                  ShiroKuro

                                  Yes, you are right. I have to say I didn't check the entire piece. I was curious about it, if I can use a different approach, because I want to try to play the sort of music you often play, because I like it. This piece was stuck in my head because I watched your practice video. I'm listening all sorts of music to find a piece I want to play, but it's so difficult to choose. This topic made me realize that for some of that music I might need another way of memorizing, but wishing wasn't the best example for that indeed. 😄

                                    You should definitely try Wishing. It’s very accessible in my opinion, and a “people pleasure” too which is always nice. We could start a thread about it 🙂

                                      Josephine I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing.

                                      You can also listen to the tone of your playing while reading the music. When practising over days, refining your music, the "reading" isn't the same as at first anyway. It's more like road signs along an already familiar street.

                                      I memorize some passages especially if I want to pay attention to what my hands & arms/body are doing because the physical technical part of my playing is behind. What I find is that the written music also takes on additional dimensions. In both cases there is a synergy.

                                          keystring It's more like road signs along an already familiar street.

                                          So then it's more or less memorized right? 😄
                                          I do read the melody of music sometimes while checking if I got the dynamics right, if I didn't forget anything. But most of the time I don't look at it.

                                              An ear training exercise from Muso Academy in Australia. Students would listen to a phrase played by a teacher and repeat it. Remembering sound sequences is 1 type of memory. Remembering fingerings as in muscle memory is another.

                                              Don’t know if people with perfect pitch are also good at remembering music. I have good relative pitch and remember music easily.

                                              Many people can sing well. The voice is an instrument you can control easily. Other musical instruments are mechanical devices that require hands coordination. Some instruments you have to blow air properly to make a good sound. Remembering a tune and reproducing it on an instrument are 2 different skills to master.

                                                Josephine So then it's more or less memorized right? 😄
                                                I do read the melody of music sometimes while checking if I got the dynamics right, if I didn't forget anything. But most of the time I don't look at it.

                                                When I first play from the score it is not memorized, ofc, but I still hear a fair bit from the page. When you read words, do you also sort of hear them?

                                                    keystring

                                                    Only at the start, but when I manage to concentrate well the voice dissappears.

                                                    But with playing music I hear it too, like playing with a recording. When reading music I hear it only when I know the piece.

                                                      Josephine keystring It's more like road signs along an already familiar street.

                                                      So then it's more or less memorized right?

                                                      This has always been an interesting question to me, because I actively read while playing, starting many years ago when I started making a conscious effort to play from the score, even with polished pieces. I became very good a "read-playing," a skill I utilize to this day. Although I draw a sharp distinction (for myself, in my own practice) between sightreading (prima vista) and read-playing, it's clear to me that my approach to read-playing really helped my sightreading, and my strength in sightreading makes it easy for me read-play....

                                                      All that to say, when I'm playing and reading the score, I am actively looking at the notes, even with a polished piece. But at the same time, I know I'm not truly doing a "close reading" the way you would with a piece you've never played or only played a few times.

                                                      So obviously, there's a good bit that's memorized. But it's also not "memorized," because I can't play without the score.

                                                      I think for people who don't memorize, this kind of reading must be different from the way memorizers read, and also the memory we have of pieces we know well, but play from the score, is also somehow different from a memorizer's "memorized piece."

                                                      if that makes sense?

                                                      I'm curious what other habitual readers, like @twocats , think about this.

                                                          keystring Josephine I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing.

                                                          You can also listen to the tone of your playing while reading the music.

                                                          One other thing about this.... not to muddy the waters... but, there are various "cognitive burdens" when playing. And different people will experience those burdens to a greater or lesser degree... We can all (and should!) train ourselves to listen while playing, whether reading or not.

                                                          But if we're reading while playing, there is necessarily going to be some amount of "cognitive burden," some amount or our attention taken up from reading, even for comfortable readers. So I think one key point of this thread (not to put words into @twocats 's mouth)... is that, for those of us who are habitual readers, what can we gain from memorizing. And I think this idea that, if we memorize and are therefore not reading the score, we will be freed up, our attention will be freed up, to focus more on other things... so it's not that we're not listening to tone while reading, but the idea anyway, is that we could listen more closely or fully if we memorize....

                                                          Now, having said all that.... since I am a comfortable reader and I almost never memorize, it might be the case that my ability to listen could actually be diminished when I'm trying to play from memory, because the cognitive burden of memorizing will be so much higher for me, compared to when I'm reading...

                                                          This of course is something to experiment with (in the spirit of MG), and is unlikely to be the same from one pianist to the next....