ShiroKuro @Animisha and @Josephine I think I reach the stage where a piece becomes a part of me only after playing it a lot (and I don’t mean practicing it a lot), combined with recording or performing it for others, and also after learning it, polishing it, forgetting it and then bringing it back again.

The only two pieces that stuck around since I was a teenager were pieces that I worked on for at least a year back then (and when you're young a year feels like forever) and memorized! I have to say that they're indeed a part of me because everything else has gone away but I can't seem to forget these if I tried.

@Animisha and @Josephine I do think it's possible for you to reach that stage, but you would have to keep working on a piece over a very long time, as SK said not just "practicing" but "playing". And I also agree that the act of putting something away and bringing it back solidifies it (Greg N. also talked about "forgetting" a section and "relearning" it).

ShiroKuro Anyway, I think, for me anyway, all this means is that I should choose the piece to memorize carefully, so that if my aim is to practice memorization as an exercise in and of itself, then I should pick a piece that I only have to “learn to play it,” rather than a piece that I have to “learn how to play.”

I'm doing both-- I can play the fast parts of Ballade 2 but slowly. It'll take a lot of work to get it up to speed, but I have stuff like fingerings and phrasing figured out already (Greg N. can do that on the fly but better for us if it's figured out in advance, I think). I'm hoping that the memorization will also help the learning process but we'll see!

ShiroKuro re the layers in forScore, that sounds frustrating, if you haven’t already perhaps you might try to google some how-to to make sure there’s not a trick you’re missing?

I'll Google, the software can't be that stupid, can it? 🤣

    twocats I'll Google, the software can't be that stupid, can it? 🤣

    I was thinking that the solution might be to only use score layers even for my markings (forScore defaults to a page layer) but apparently if you use multiple score layers there is a long-time bug where they might compress into one big score layer and you can't get it back. Or it doesn't save and is lost!!

    And there's a person who reported that all their page layers got merged into one as well. I think it's minimal risk for these particular markings as they're easy to erase if needed but it looks like using layers for anything complex may be a little risky. I'm going to be backing up my .4sc individual annotation files more often!

      twocats I'm hoping that the memorization will also help the learning process but we'll see!

      I am sure it will. I just feel I'm too lazy right now to try to memorize a piece that I also have to more active learn the how of as well. 😅

        twocats Good grief!! forScore is practically an industry standard! I don't have data but I would be willing to be it's the most widely used, and the one most used by professionals and teachers. You would think they could fix this....

        Anyway, making a back up of the score and experimenting with the copy is the way to go of course.

          ShiroKuro BTW just writing this post makes me think I really need to be firm with myself and try to memorize the whole piece for Wishing, not just a few sections… Being a “reader” makes me so lazy… 😅

          Looking at your markings I'm wondering if I should switch to letters instead of numbers, but then since I have over 26 I'll have to do AA, BB, etc at the end. Letters feel more "right" to me.

          I definitely relate to the laziness! Yesterday when I was studying the score I actually found myself thinking "this is in F major, here it's a C chord so it's V (five-- relative chord)" and noticing that in a repeated section that Chopin has added an additional note to each chord. I would never have noticed this if I wasn't trying to memorize!

          ShiroKuro I am sure it will. I just feel I'm too lazy right now to try to memorize a piece that I also have to more active learn the how of as well. 😅

          In my opinion you should start with a piece you already know and memorize that. That way there's less risk of memorizing it wrong as well!

            ShiroKuro You would think they could fix this....

            Apparently it never fully worked and iOS also keeps changing so the developers haven't been able to figure out a fix. My understanding is that to save time they compress everything to one layer and then uncompress it, but then sometimes it doesn't uncompress 😱

              twocats Looking at your markings I'm wondering if I should switch to letters instead of numbers, but then since I have over 26 I'll have to do AA, BB, etc at the end. Letters feel more "right" to me.

              I go back and forth about this.... IMO the best way to do, which I don't always do, is this:
              Analyze the score to find sections that have the same theme or other commonalities, those would be labeled similarly. For example, A1, A2..... then if you need to break them up into smaller pieces, you could do A1-1, A1-2 etc.... This way you don't run out of the alphabet, and you see connections across the score.

              This takes more time on the front end, so the several pieces, I've just gone from the beginning and labeled A, B etc. so I do indeed sometimes get up to AA etc... This "feels" more efficient because I can start practicing right away, and then use those rehearsal marks for "drop in practice etc....

              just fyi!

                twocats My understanding is that to save time they compress everything to one layer and then uncompress it, but then sometimes it doesn't uncompress 😱

                😱😱😱😱

                ShiroKuro Analyze the score to find sections that have the same theme or other commonalities, those would be labeled similarly. For example, A1, A2..... then if you need to break them up into smaller pieces, you could do A1-1, A1-2 etc.... This way you don't run out of the alphabet, and you see connections across the score.

                Thanks, this is very helpful! I think I should "get it right" before I start to mentally associate the chunks with a label. I am currently thinking big sections are A, B, C, and inside them I can do A1, A2, etc for memorization phrases. Even if A and C have a similar theme (they're similar but not identical), I can remember that.

                This has the bonus effect of if I decide to add or remove a chunk (which I did yesterday), it only affects the numbering for that section and I don't have to adjust for the whole piece!

                  twocats Thanks, this is very helpful! I think I should "get it right" before I start to mentally associate the chunks with a label. I am currently thinking big sections are A, B, C, and inside them I can do A1, A2, etc for memorization phrases.

                  I updated the sections and it was definitely the right decision, because I will now start associating each larger section with a letter. I'm up to M by the end 😳 I also added a bunch of smaller chunks for learning. I think the goal while memorizing is to do it one chunk at a time, but once it's solid my goal is to be able to erase all the subsections (K1, K2, etc) and be able to play each letter section (all of K) at will.

                  This is going to be lots of hard work but I also think there is a lot of payoff to going through this! If I succeed I don't think I will ever "lose" this work and it will be easy to recover even if I put it away for years.

                    twocats I updated the sections and it was definitely the right decision, because I will now start associating each larger section with a letter. I'm up to M by the end 😳

                    Now thinking I should change it to what SK suggested, this is too many sections to track. I should do A1, A2 for every time the same theme happens. I can use a different color pen to create the subsections for the smaller memorization chunks, because those are temporary.

                    I've been solving my "layer selection" issue by making sure I click on the page layer every time before I exit a page, since the memorization chunk layer is more of a "one and done" thing (if you do it right the first time, which I am not).

                      twocats Now thinking I should change it to what SK suggested, this is too many sections to track. I should do A1, A2 for every time the same theme happens. I can use a different color pen to create the subsections for the smaller memorization chunks, because those are temporary.

                      Done, and I like this so much more! I think this method is the winner. There's really only 3 distinct main sections and two of them are repeated but with variations, and I wanted to represent that in a way that made sense. So I called the main themes A/A1 and B/B1, etc (thought about calling it "Theme" and "Presto" but it felt too wordy, I can easily remember that A means the original theme and B means the Presto), and called the end Coda because that's what everyone calls it rather than to make up a letter name (even though it happens to be C). And instead of more letter names for the different transitions I called it "A1 bridge". I think these will stay in my memory far better than assigning numbers or letters.

                      I used a different color marker to break down the chunks for memorization. As I learn these I may erase what I currently have and merge them into bigger phrases. But visually and organizationally this makes so much more sense and should help it get locked into my brain.

                        @ShiroKuro

                        I just tried a small part of Wishing, to see if it would be different for me with this piece, and I memorize it hands together immediately. It feels best to do it that way because of the rhythm.

                          twocats Now thinking I should change it to what SK suggested, this is too many sections to track. I should do A1, A2 for every time the same theme happens. I can use a different color pen to create the subsections for the smaller memorization chunks, because those are temporary.

                          Yes, with longer pieces, I think you will want to settle on a system that is manageable... The first longer piece I memorized (this was like, more 20 years ago) I remember I made a story about it, and I labeled each section with descriptive words from the story. So for that piece, instead of rehearsal sections A, B, etc. I had little phrases like "the wind picks up" ... I don't remember now (isn't that ironic!)

                          Actually I bet it's been 20 years since I've played it, I should dig it up and see how it goes trying to resurrect it.....

                          ETA the reason I brought this up is because that piece was like maybe 7 pages, and I'm guessing your piece, @twocats is longer? Also, pages are less imprtant than the number of measures... I really need to go find the score...

                            ShiroKuro The first longer piece I memorized (this was like, more 20 years ago)

                            😳😳😳😳😳
                            So I checked the ABF recital index. I submitted that to the recital in 2009... I'm pretty I learned it a few years before that... and my recital recording was my old digital piano... ahh memories.... speaking of memories, I will try to remember to dig up this score this weekend and see how it goes.
                            If anyone is curious, it's While the Trees Sleep by David Nevue, here's me and my very digital-sounding digital:
                            https://recitals.pianoworld.com/recital_files/Recital_16/51.%20ShiroKuro%20-%20While%20the%20Trees%20Sleep.mp3

                            And thank you @Sam for the recital index, it's truly amazing!!!

                            twocats Done, and I like this so much more! I think this method is the winner.

                            Oh good!! (I'm reading slow here...) I'm glad you found a system that will work for you.

                            ShiroKuro ETA the reason I brought this up is because that piece was like maybe 7 pages, and I'm guessing your piece, @twocats is longer?

                            It's 10 pages! Actually doing this exercise has already been helpful because it forced me to figure out the exact structure of the piece 🙂

                              Josephine to me, I think Wishing could go either way (memorize HS or HT)...

                              The thing I don't think I could memorize HS is a piece where one voice or melody is distributed across the hands. Wishing is very straightforward in that regard, the melody is fully in the RH and the accompaniment is fully in the LH. They fit nicely together, so HT works work, but I think one could do the HS approach... And I do mean "one" because I'm not going to do it!! 😅

                                twocats It's 10 pages!

                                Yes, that's pretty long to just go A, B, C...

                                But figuring out the structure is exactly how I was benefiting from this approach yesterday... Ok, i'm gonna go practice before it gets too late here! 😃

                                ShiroKuro

                                Yes, you are right. I have to say I didn't check the entire piece. I was curious about it, if I can use a different approach, because I want to try to play the sort of music you often play, because I like it. This piece was stuck in my head because I watched your practice video. I'm listening all sorts of music to find a piece I want to play, but it's so difficult to choose. This topic made me realize that for some of that music I might need another way of memorizing, but wishing wasn't the best example for that indeed. 😄