keystring Josephine I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing.

You can also listen to the tone of your playing while reading the music.

One other thing about this.... not to muddy the waters... but, there are various "cognitive burdens" when playing. And different people will experience those burdens to a greater or lesser degree... We can all (and should!) train ourselves to listen while playing, whether reading or not.

But if we're reading while playing, there is necessarily going to be some amount of "cognitive burden," some amount or our attention taken up from reading, even for comfortable readers. So I think one key point of this thread (not to put words into @twocats 's mouth)... is that, for those of us who are habitual readers, what can we gain from memorizing. And I think this idea that, if we memorize and are therefore not reading the score, we will be freed up, our attention will be freed up, to focus more on other things... so it's not that we're not listening to tone while reading, but the idea anyway, is that we could listen more closely or fully if we memorize....

Now, having said all that.... since I am a comfortable reader and I almost never memorize, it might be the case that my ability to listen could actually be diminished when I'm trying to play from memory, because the cognitive burden of memorizing will be so much higher for me, compared to when I'm reading...

This of course is something to experiment with (in the spirit of MG), and is unlikely to be the same from one pianist to the next....

      keystring When you read words, do you also sort of hear them?

      No, actually, I don't think I do. Not in either of my reading languages (English and Japanese).

      And I don't hear music from the score. If I tap my finger, I can hear the rhythm (because I'm tapping it of course). But I don't hear notes or pitch unless I start to play.

      So I guess not only do I not play by ear, but I also can't "read by ear" either.

          ShiroKuro obviously, there's a good bit that's memorized. But it's also not "memorized," because I can't play without the score.

          I think for people who don't memorize, this kind of reading must be different from the way memorizers read, and also the memory we have of pieces we know well, but play from the score, is also somehow different from a memorizer's "memorized piece."

          if that makes sense?

          I'm curious what other habitual readers, like @twocats , think about this.

          I think for me learning a score is essentially getting it into my "finger memory" so that I don't have to struggle. But the "note memory" doesn't exist at all-- as I'd mentioned, I'd have trouble even telling you what note a piece starts on even if I can play it well.

          ShiroKuro But if we're reading while playing, there is necessarily going to be some amount of "cognitive burden," some amount or our attention taken up from reading, even for comfortable readers. So I think one key point of this thread (not to put words into @twocats 's mouth)... is that, for those of us who are habitual readers, what can we gain from memorizing. And I think this idea that, if we memorize and are therefore not reading the score, we will be freed up, our attention will be freed up, to focus more on other things... so it's not that we're not listening to tone while reading, but the idea anyway, is that we could listen more closely or fully if we memorize....

          Actually I think having the score removes that cognitive burden for me! I literally don't have to think about a piece that's not difficult to read (the notes translate directly into my fingers), and have occasionally watched TV on a tablet with subtitles on while practicing. Reading feels pretty "brainless" for me.

          By memorizing, I will definitely engage other parts of my brain. I think initially there will be far more cognitive burden for me to memorize but if I work at it enough to be confident, I think that it'll be a different, deeper, way of experiencing how I play the piece. It's going to be quite a lot of hard work though!

                twocats Actually I think having the score removes that cognitive burden for me! I literally don't have to think about a piece that's not difficult to read

                Yep, I think this is the same for me.... So I don't think we're "lazy" when it comes to memorizing, but it just feels so much harder than reader, that there's a big disincentive!

                    ShiroKuro we're lazy to make the extra effort to do it because it's harder for us 😆

                      I wrote today before reading the whole thread which I usually try no to do. I was initially reacting to the idea that when music is memorized one can focus on the tone, but if one is reading one cannot, or less so. I have seen similar things, where folks say you can't play fully expressively until it is memorized. I think these things are subjective because we experience and live music differently. That is what I was trying to get at.

                      ShiroKuro Now, having said all that.... since I am a comfortable reader and I almost never memorize, it might be the case that my ability to listen could actually be diminished when I'm trying to play from memory, because the cognitive burden of memorizing will be so much higher for me, compared to when I'm reading...

                      This actually goes to what I was thinking in regard to subjective experiences. That has also happened to me - I can relate. I like the term "cognitive burden" which you wrote in an earlier paragraph. I'm also thinking at this moment about associations that trigger things.

                      twocats I think for me learning a score is essentially getting it into my "finger memory" so that I don't have to struggle.

                      This also reminded me of some things. I became aware some time ago that I have no hand awareness, no finger awareness. Someone told me that when they read a score, they see the piano and they see their hand on the piano carrying out the motions. I see ..... nothing. Since becoming aware of this, I have thought it might be good to build this, because it might create a greater level of physical certainty to my playing.

                      ShiroKuro No, actually, I don't think I do. Not in either of my reading languages (English and Japanese).

                      And I'm thinking about my own question. I know that when I read your words, I heard them, but then maybe I didn't because I read faster than a person can speak. And there's an experience across languages when it seemed I must think in pictures.

                      The reason I asked, however, because if people did hear the words they read, it might have helped understand how I originally processed written music.

                              keystring This also reminded me of some things. I became aware some time ago that I have no hand awareness, no finger awareness. Someone told me that when they read a score, they see the piano and they see their hand on the piano carrying out the motions.

                              By finger memory, I don't mean that I see my fingers in my mind, but that my fingers learn the patterns of the music and are able to play easily and automatically (as one does once the music is "learned"). I also don't think I have an awareness of my actual fingers. If I have an intention of my phrasing my fingers know what to do to achieve that without my having to think about it.

                              keystring I know that when I read your words, I heard them, but then maybe I didn't because I read faster than a person can speak.

                              I think I hear the words in my head but maybe without it having a recognizable voice? I'm honestly not sure, it's happening as I type this but it's not clear to me exactly what it happening.

                                    To the last: My first taught experience was a 2nd grade teacher having us sing while she pointed to a solfege board. I internalized the major scale and natural minor scale, which in that system started on La. At age 8 I was given a little organ, and a book for adult learners - it was very diatonic (so same system) and for the most part in C major and A minor. I associated the notation with the aural patterns I'd learned. Thus a diagonal set of notes going line-space-line-space etc. described a scale, and "sounded like" a major scale. I "heard" that major scale from the page, and then played on the organ what I heard from the page. This "hearing" was in relative pitch, but I also knew where to find Do (usually C, or F, or G).

                                    Later I was given a piano and a bit of music, especially a set of sonatinas - above all Clementi who is predictable, but all the music was pretty well diatonic. I stayed in my solfege world, and I kept hearing the music off the page. I thought everyone read music this way. As an adult I brought a song I loved to my violin teacher, and I didn't know why he brought it to the piano to find out how it sounded. Because I "heard it from the page".

                                    I can also get confused by visual symmetry; what makes dyslexics confuse p b q d and cat vs tac but learned that later. I played in a tactile way, feeling for where the sound was.. When I first tried to look at my hands for technique I got confused by the symmetry of the keys and had to look away. So this thing people have, just wasn't there.

                                    Otoh, there are people who can hear from the page in a way I can't. Chords and chord qualities aren't there much. I know someone who looks at a page and says "This part doesn't sound good." But that person also feels in their fingers what they see on the page.

                                    This is OT to the topic, but goes to hearing and reading maybe.

                                    twocats By finger memory, I don't mean that I see my fingers in my mind, but that my fingers learn the patterns of the music and are able to play easily and automatically (as one does once the music is "learned").

                                    I might have that. (?)

                                      This discussion is getting quite interesting, @twocats and @keystring !!

                                      So, I think I do have finger awareness.... like, I can see the keyboard in my mind, and my fingers....

                                      I think I am very visual and very text-based... I read Japanese (character writing) and I am a pretty fast reader in Japanese even though it's my second language. And I learned how to read in Japanese before I started playing piano (I started learning piano after I moved to Japan)....

                                      Anyway, I think as a student, and now as an academic, and in my hobby life as a pianist, I am very visual in terms of how I learn, how I remember... for example, if I read a physical book, I can remember where in the book a particular word was. IOW, was it on the left or right side page, how far down the page, how far into the book, that kind of thing... That's sort of visual, sort of spatial I guess...

                                      So I think I have a very developed "mind's eye" and I am very good at getting information from visual codes, including English, Japanese, and musical notation (I also used to sign ASL and speak and read Korean, though I've mostly forgotten both)

                                      But I don't have a good "mind's ear." When I played guitar, I could tune my guitar (using a tuner though) and I used to sing a lot.... IOW, I have a good enough sense of relative pitch. But I can't sightsing, and I don't "hear" music just from looking at a score....

                                      Just rambling now though... 🙂

                                        Oh and to the earlier point, I don't "hear" when I read written language, I know that my reading is much faster than it would be if I was hearing spoken word in my head....

                                        ShiroKuro So, I think I do have finger awareness.... like, I can see the keyboard in my mind, and my fingers....

                                        Interesting, I only see my fingers in my mind through the process of memorization (basically remembering my finger placement on the keyboard)!

                                        When I was younger, I think my memorization process was remembering what my fingers looked like on the piano combined with finger memory, which would autopilot once I started. I think my current attempt will add in conscious learning of the notes on top of that.

                                          I'm working on memorizing the first two lines of Chopin Ballade 2 (which are easy!) and I have never studied an easy section so hard in my life. Strangely enough, I find myself doing chord analysis! Not just figuring out the chord but also how it relates to the tonic. I'm not sure if it'll help, but I find myself doing it.

                                          I'm definitely memorizing how my hands look as well as getting it into my finger memory. When trying to play back from memory I sometimes close my eyes. This part is tricky to memorize because Chopin is not consistent, most of the times the right and left hand are each playing two notes but sometimes it's one or three. So hands separately at times definitely helps to lock in what's actually going on.

                                          I think it's getting a little easier as I work on it. My brain was probably like "what the heck are you doing?!" but hopefully it continues to get easier and I think small, manageable chunks is key! Also I think for me, I need to learn the piece to a decent level before starting to memorize. I don't think I want to do both at the same time.

                                            thepianoplayer416 An ear training exercise from Muso Academy in Australia. Students would listen to a phrase played by a teacher and repeat it.... Don’t know if people with perfect pitch are also good at remembering music.

                                            Back before I dropped out of music school, they would do this sort of exercise in aural skills (ear training) class! Perfect pitch certainly helps (not sure what part of the video challenge was supposed to be "crazy"), but they often threw in a twist to make it harder for us: They would say e.g. "I am starting on C#" but then actually start playing on C. People with relative pitch were fine, but I would have to either transpose in my head on the fly ("ok that's a C, up half a step, write C# on the staff"), or occasionally I was lucky enough to brainwash my perfect pitch into believing the C was actually a C# (kind of like unfocusing your eyes deliberately but with your brain lol).

                                            "You're a smart kid. But your playing is terribly dull."

                                                TheBoringPianist Perfect pitch certainly helps

                                                Whoa, you have perfect pitch? I'm guessing it helps with memorization 🙂

                                                  I (not very solidly) memorized the entire first A section, which was a lot more than I had intended! I did the work in 9 separate chunks (3 of them are pretty much the same, so freebies!). I plan to do as close to Dr. Molly's practice schedule as possible since my friend swears that it changed his life.

                                                  Since this section is very easy to read, I think really internalizing the notes in minute detail is making this a part of me, since I never had to pay attention to the notes before! It's been a long time since I've been able to play with my eyes closed and just let the music happen. I think maybe I should also try to memorize the sections of the Bach that are giving me trouble.

                                                  It is a lot of work but I think worthwhile for this Chopin at least.

                                                    twocats I have never studied an easy section so hard in my life.

                                                    😆 oh my gosh, I’ve met pieces like that! (Probably not as hard as the Ballade, but you know…)

                                                    twocats I'm definitely memorizing how my hands look as well as getting it into my finger memory. When trying to play back from memory I sometimes close my eyes. This part is tricky to memorize because Chopin is not consistent, most of the times the right and left hand are each playing two notes but sometimes it's one or three. So hands separately at times definitely helps to lock in what's actually going on.

                                                    Did you take some of these ideas from the Greg N. video?

                                                    twocats I need to learn the piece to a decent level before starting to memorize. I don't think I want to do both at the same time.

                                                    Yes, this is what I was thinking while watching that video, just how hard it would be to learn and memorize at the same time…. But the funny thing is, for people who habitually memorize, even beginners, that’s probably what they’re doing.

                                                    I have been playing piano for a long time, but this is the most time I’ve spent thinking about memorization vs. reading… very interesting!

                                                            twocats I think maybe I should also try to memorize the sections of the Bach that are giving me trouble.

                                                            Definitely!

                                                            Obviously, my pieces are not as challenging as yours, but since you started this thread, this has been the biggest benefit for me— IOW just making it a point to memorize small sections that give me trouble, instead of reading only. And I’m not even necessarily succeeding in memorizing those parts, it’s more just the things I’m doing in attempting to memorize are helping me in unexpected ways….

                                                              ShiroKuro Yes, this is what I was thinking while watching that video, just how hard it would be to learn and memorize at the same time…. But the funny thing is, for people who habitually memorize, even beginners, that’s probably what they’re doing.

                                                              That's what I do indeed. But what happens when I do that, is that at some point halfway I keep practicing/playing/perfecting the part I already learned, because it's never good enough, but even more because it's more fun than learning and memorizing the other half of the piece, so I think, I'll do that tomorrow. And tomorrow I think, well maybe not now, maybe I'm a bit too tired for it now. Tomorrow is better.

                                                                Sgisela I’ve got a long reply; hopefully it’s useful. ......

                                                                I'm quoting this just in order to be able to refer back to this post. There are many useful ideas in it. I could call it a "reference post" if there is such a thing.
                                                                I'd also say it includes some variants of what the pianist video gives, but has quite a few more elements.