Sophia That specific piece has a rather Mozartian texture. Pedal is generally left to the discernment of the player within reason. On an acoustic piano, that could sound good without the pedal if it's played at a relatively fast tempo and with good phrasing. The semiquavers in the LH should kind of decrescendo each time for instance and the RH should "sing" more.

I only tend to use the suggestion not to use pedal at the initial stages if it still sounds good. Otherwise, I might start out with minimal pedal, or "standard" pedal (like once per chord, etc.). If you play a Chopin Nocturne with no pedal, it sounds incredibly choppy and doesn't really help you or give you a better idea of how to play the piece imo, unless it's done for a short while in a very targeted fashion or something. It's important not to add pedal too soon, but it's also important that your practice never ends up sounding like "just the notes".

      Sophia I recorded a quick sequence what I meant.

      Certainly, with the digital piano in this acoustic, the piece sounds very dry.

      Before adding any pedal, you could see if your digital piano has a setting that gives more resonance. Most have some choices that simulate different acoustics: small hall, large hall, church... You may find something that makes the general sound more pleasing.

      It's worth listening to the original version for string quartet. You can hear three levels:

      1. The melody played by the first violin
      2. The bass line played by the cello, melodic in it's own right
      3. The accompanying figures played by the second violin and viola, very light and airy

      On your digital piano, is it possible to play the bass notes the first of each group of four in the left hand) a little bit louder than the following ones? And can those following notes sound light and airy, like the pizzicato strings? If that works, try adding just a touch of pedal to each bass note.

          MRC It's worth listening to the original version for string quartet.

          Oh yes, I was actually very familiar with the original violin version. I always loved it, it's hauntingly beautiful. I was actually a little shocked how mechanical my version sounds. I know I only just started the piece three days ago and I just cobbled together a quick demo for pedaling reasons only, but that is no excuse for soulless playing ^_^

          MRC Most have some choices that simulate different acoustics: small hall, large hall, church... You may find something that makes the general sound more pleasing.

          Our piano does indeed have a few settings, varying from "room" to "stage". But even the stage setting still sounds a little muffled. It probably doesn't help that the piano itself is in a very small room with rather poor acoustics. And it's close to 30 years old, so it's probably in the very early stages of what was possible digitally back then. At least I CAN practice, that's the main thing 🙂

          MRC On your digital piano, is it possible to play the bass notes the first of each group of four in the left hand) a little bit louder than the following ones? And can those following notes sound light and airy, like the pizzicato strings? If that works, try adding just a touch of pedal to each bass note.

          ranjit The semiquavers in the LH should kind of decrescendo each time for instance and the RH should "sing" more.

          Thank you both for those suggestions. I agree, I should probably work on making it sound more lyrical first, and then work on the pedal later. It's a very sensual piece and it doesn't deserve to be butchered by such clunky playing 😃

                  Sophia it's a digital piano. The other day I was able to play an acoustic briefly and I was stunned at how the notes kept on ringing a lot longer even without a pedal.

                  I have read that to get true legato effect, merely no gap between the notes may not be enough. Instead the notes needs to overlap a little bit. To do so, in addition to finger movement, the wrist need to get involved, too. Use the wrist to lead the fingers with rotation or lateral movement.

                  More experienced players please chime in if this makes sense or not. Maybe worth a try?

                    Right, it should be interesting what can be said about that 🙂 Like yourself I'm really grateful to have this forum. I'm not overly fussed about getting it right, but that doesn't mean I want to get it wrong. Okay that sounded weirder than I meant it, lol. What I mean to say I'm not truly sweating it, but given the choice, I'd rather learn to do things correctly!

                    I'm not a teacher, I learned to play legato when I was a kid, and I'm an amateur with perhaps not the greatest technique so take the below with a grain of salt.

                    I played slow legato and watched my fingers. One finger releases at the same time the other finger presses. The notes sound connected but not blurred. I took a video but I'm not going to share it here because I think you'd be better off watching a video on playing legato from a piano teacher on youtube. 🙂

                    When I play I move my elbow and wrist around. But I don't think I'm doing it for legato. My elbow and wrist also move when I play detached, albeit somewhat differently. The reason I'm moving my elbow and wrist is to get my fingers in the right place so I can play evenly. Having the elbow and wrist involved is critical for playing evenly at a faster tempo.

                    @Sophia - I think you’re doing great for this being 3 days into learning the piece. I think it sounds better — and more consistent with the classical character of the piece — without the pedal. For instance, I just find it a bit weird to hear the Alberti bass pedaled over, in this kind of music. So if you’re asking for my opinion, I’d continue practicing without. Once you’ve got the piece near completion, you can maybe add in a tiny bit of pedaling in very strategic places. But if it were me, I’d really minimize the pedaling in a piece like this.

                    Musically, I would really pay attention to the phrases/lines and articulation. As you really get the piece into your hands, I would think about having a more delicate touch. With regard to articulation, when you have an eighth note as the last note under a slur, you are coming off of it very quickly, to the point that it sounds a little staccato. The character of the piece is graceful and flowing, with long-ish lines, so I think you want to give the notes their full value, as much as possible. I think one of the things you may like about the pedal is that it is lengthening those notes a little bit, but you should be able to do that just by staying on them a little longer/not coming off too quickly.

                    Anyways, that’s my 2 cents.

                    Two cents??? Pfft I consider that million dollar advice 🥰 Thank you!
                    I will practice the piece without pedal and see if I can apply all the advice given. There are a few places later on where the pedal is used, but I think that is just to cover some large leaps.

                    And Roger, with your half a century experience you may call yourself an expert on anything piano related 😁

                    Sophia I liked the version without pedal better. The 2nd one sounded a bit mushy to my ears.

                      Thanks WieWaldi 🙂 I do too now. I have actually been practising this a bit today (together with the blues lesson, hehehe, it is not completely forgotten!).

                      What I have done so far: Set the piano to both "stage" and also "echo". That way it sounds a little less muted. I also set the touch to light, to force myself to be less heavy-handed. And I have been trying to incorporate most other suggestions - to the best of my ability, I hasten to add 🙂 Especially the staccato 8th notes - wow! I'm already hearing a world of difference when I remember to hold those notes longer!

                      @iternabe apologies for polluting this thread 😊 If you wish I can ask the moderators to split it off to its own topic because it's sort of moving away from pedaling now. But then again, we're all learning together right? This way we can all pick up ideas from each other. I really enjoyed reading all the suggestions so far and learning so much from the experienced players!

                      I started with easy lesson 5 today. It has a new chord progression, always 3 or 4 fingers on some mellow (minor and diminished) chords. And because it takes a while to reposition the left hand, I need to pedal this. Best pedaling is, if you don't hear that you are pedaling. But still there are no abrupt changes in the chord progression. Meaning, pedal down as late as possible (to make RH melody not mushy / depends also on the specific notes), but early enough to give your hand time to reposition.

                      And I can't repeat enough: when the hand goes down (in my case LH), the pedal goes up.

                      That's it: Easy to know, but early-late beginner level to master.

                      Edit: if you want to master it in early beginner state, you should start as bloody, lovely or total beginner already.😏
                      Blues Piano for Beginners Lesson 13 "The St. James Infirmary Lesson" is also a good place to start with pedaling. Christian doesn't talk about it, nor does he demand it, but there are some quite good places for pedaling.

                        Well, I have practiced the piece some more and tried to apply all your suggestions - thank you, I'm really grateful! I have quickly recorded another try. Sorry, my husband had a sneezing fit 😃 And also I did not attempt to correct my mistakes, because I deliberately didn't want to strive for a "perfect" recording and mess up the gentleness I was trying to achieve. Would you guys say I'm on the right track now?

                          I liked it, it was fluent and I could not hear the pedal (which is good).
                          Except the part between 1:03 and 1:14. Here in my opinion there was too much of pedaling. You didn't lift it after the RH jumps, no? Is it possible, to film the pedal, too? (iternabe's videos are remarkably good to analyze)

                          A saggy smartphone video should be enough for that. You should sync it with the main camera by the audio track. DaVinci Resolve should have an "Auto Sync Audio" functionality...

                            WieWaldi DaVinci Resolve should have an "Auto Sync Audio" functionality...

                            Is there a functionality like that in Davinci Resolve? That’d be quite handy. I have been syncing video clips by aligning the waveforms.

                                Sophia
                                I didn't notice any pedaling issues but I think you really need to work on really softening that left hand. It's just an accompaniment and it's supposed to be very soft but now it's sort of overwhelming the melody. This is difficult but it's probably the single thing that will have the most impact on the piece.

                                Also a small nitpick on the final note - it's a typical classical-style resolution so don't accent the last note. Make it slightly softer and connect it legato to the previous note.

                                Great work so far!👍

                                  Thanks so much everyone!!! Bart, you be as nitpicky as you like - I feel that I have reached a stage where I need to work on musicality more, not just hitting the right notes at the correct time. I agree with everything you said in fact and it gives me something to work on in addition to the things already mentioned before 😃

                                  WieWaldi Except the part between 1:03 and 1:14. Here in my opinion there was too much of pedaling. You didn't lift it after the RH jumps, no?

                                  Funny you mention that 🙂 In fact, that is the only location in the entire piece where the pedal is used at all... well and the very last note. It's a very simple pedal:

                                  I don't know yet how to film this, but I may be able to adjust the camera to show my feet as well as the hands, maybe turn the phone 90 degrees. When I practice again, I will pay attention if I lift the pedal early enough (not all the way at the end of the bar). Thank you for noticing that even without a video to show my foot 😃

                                  Actually I watched "Let's Play Piano Methods" and he suggested not to pedal at all in this piece and to try to make the jump as legato as possible by reaching across. He probably has a point - it does contrast a little too much with the rest of the piece, I agree with that.

                                  This is fun - I'm really enjoying this learning process 🤩

                                      Sophia I don't know yet how to film this

                                      Borrow smartphone of Simba, Lionel or Sandy? And if they refuse, you can ask your husband. Put both video tracks into DaVinci, and sync via audio-track. Then do picture in picture. I know, it is something new to learn about video filming&editing, but isn't this the Learners Lounge?

                                          WieWaldi isn't this the Learners Lounge?

                                          Yes, but but but... my poor head is getting so full with knowledge that we will have to replace the doors with double doors soon 🫡

                                          I promise I will give it a try soon, but first I want to concentrate on the blues lesson and all the other tips I received about this Alfred piece 😄

                                              Sophia If you could just record the same run with two phones (or cameras), and just upload the video separately. I could download and make a picture-in-picture video to show hand/foot coordination.

                                              It has to be the same run, though. Not two runs of the same piece.