Beginner question about pedal timing

iternabe · 2024-08-27T22:00:36+00:00

Here is how I have been taught by Let's Play Piano Methods YouTube channel about pedal timing. At the beginning of pedal mark, in most cases, play the not...

Bellyman

Having been playing piano for over 50 years now, probably closer to 55, I find it interesting that I haven't a clue exactly "how" I use the sustain pedal though I use a lot.

I do sometimes play without it for short bits, mostly when I'm going through something I want to play more precisely and don't want the sustain to muddy the sound. I have thought that if something happened that the sustain pedal quit working, there would be numbers in our repertoire that I think I could get through and have them sound decent. Hopefully, I'll never have one quit during a concert. (I usually do have an extra somewhere not that far away.)

To add to the complexity, I do sometimes play piano and strings together and the sustain works the same with both sounds. It can be interesting when you'd kinda like the strings to sustain and the piano not to, or vice versa but have one keyboard and one sustain pedal to make it all happen. That can be fun. 🙂

Sgisela

iternabe I think @WieWaldi pointed out ones where you very clearly lifted the pedal too early. What I noticed was that you tended to do this when you were playing forte. When this same figure was repeated at softer dynamics, you played it just fine or pretty close (the one at around 5 seconds was very nice; the one around 21s was maybe a touch too early but very very close).

Anyways, my sense is that you have a tendency to raise the pedal too early, and probably when you’re very focused on the pedal, you do it correctly, but when you’re focusing on some other things (like the dynamics), then you revert back to your tendencies. I think what happens is that there is a strong feeling in the body for the foot to mimic what the arm/hand are doing; parts of the body like to mirror each others’ motions. So you are lifting your foot at the same time you are lifting your fingers off the notes. I think you could try working on this much more slowly, paying very close attention to the sound and to how the arm/finger pressing DOWN triggers the foot to come UP. You will get there!

iternabe

@WieWaldi @Sgisela I gave it another try tonight. I was trying to consciously delay the pedal down. Still trying to time the pedal lift with chord change - maybe slightly not as rushed as before.

Here is take 2:

WieWaldi

iternabe Much better pedaling this time. Really good progress in a very short amount of time. 👍

Only at the very first pedaling (0:05), you lifted it a bit too early to be completely legato. All others later in the video were good.

My guess is, your subconscious mind (what you have learned so far) was winning the first pedaling and then the conscious mind (what you are re-learning now) won the rest.
You should practice this for the next days to make it a habit in the long run. You must re-program your subconscious mind so you can run it on autopilot. But be aware, you learned something incorrect before and there is always the risk you are falling back to it - especially if you are stressed by learning new stuff and the conscious mind is too busy for correcting the old habit.

Sgisela

@iternabe the pedaling sounded correct in the 2nd version.

I should also add: this and my earlier comment were about doing legato pedaling, as was indicated in the screenshot of the score you attached, and doing this as your score indicated.

However, I think a musical argument could be made for playing it without pedal and leaving a very slight separation between those chords, or for varying the pedaling of the chords between the variations. Musically, I thought the way you played it the first time sounded very reasonable, and the differences in pedaling added some interest to the variations. I quickly glanced at the original Brahms score, and in the first variation these chords are marked tenuto, so it would be appropriate to not play these chords in a full legato manner, but rather with a tiny separation between the chords.

All that said, at this stage, I think the method book wants you to do legato pedaling in those spots. You will use legato pedaling a lot, so it’s worth investing the time to feel very comfortable with it. You’re off to a great start!

iternabe

Sgisela Thank you for the very clear explanation of the musical argument on pedaling. Yours echo my YouTube teacher who also frequently question the pedaling choice made by the Faber book. In some pieces he strongly disagree. For this one, he's okay if student want to practice the legato pedal. I especially like your idea of varying the pedaling between variations. My mother-in-law does Chinese caligraphy, and one thing she mentioned when the same character occurs multiple times on a scroll, they should all be written slightly different. Artists think alike 🙂

WieWaldi You read my mind! And I think you are right. I feel I am always more nervous at the beginning of a piece. Getting the opening notes out at the correct dynamics (especially when soft) is hard and takes so much concentration. Therefore my mind was probably not fully refocused on pedaling for that first instance. Now I realize when tweaking particular technique, it really needs all other parts of the playing to be on auto pilot.

I am so glad I asked this pedaling question. You guys are awesome! And I shall be eternally grateful.

Sophia

I actually have a question about pedaling as well. I hope you don't me using your thread for that @iternabe 😊 I just don't think it merits a topic on its own.

Right now I'm practicing a piece that calls for no pedalling, except in one or two tiny spots. However I'm finding it sounds very bare without it, I much prefer the richness of the added pedal.

So I'm on the fence whether adding the pedal is considered "cheating" to cover up my lack of being able to make it sound good without, or whether it's considered "artistic license" to do as I please 😄

I also realize that I have reached a stage where these type of questions are probably best presented to a teacher, but due to circumstances you guys are all I have so I'm leaving it here 😊

iternabe

Sophia I don‘t mind at all.

When you mention the piece sounds very bare with pedal, do you mean the sound feels thin (lack of sonority), or do you mean notes feels unconnected due to inability to achieve true legato? Also, this is on a digital piano, right?

BartK

Sophia
You can add some pedal to make a piece sound nicer but only after you have the learned it as well as you can to make sure it's not a crutch that covers up your flaws.

Sophia

iternabe When you mention the piece sounds very bare with pedal, do you mean the sound feels thin (lack of sonority), or do you mean notes feels unconnected due to inability to achieve true legato? Also, this is on a digital piano, right?

I think the former. I recorded a quick sequence what I meant... first as written (no pedal), then in the repeat how I would play it. As Bart said it just sounds nice (in my ears) that way... but I'm curious as to your opinion! Yes, it's a digital piano where the sound (I think) dies a little more quickly than an acoustic would.

ranjit

Sophia That specific piece has a rather Mozartian texture. Pedal is generally left to the discernment of the player within reason. On an acoustic piano, that could sound good without the pedal if it's played at a relatively fast tempo and with good phrasing. The semiquavers in the LH should kind of decrescendo each time for instance and the RH should "sing" more.

I only tend to use the suggestion not to use pedal at the initial stages if it still sounds good. Otherwise, I might start out with minimal pedal, or "standard" pedal (like once per chord, etc.). If you play a Chopin Nocturne with no pedal, it sounds incredibly choppy and doesn't really help you or give you a better idea of how to play the piece imo, unless it's done for a short while in a very targeted fashion or something. It's important not to add pedal too soon, but it's also important that your practice never ends up sounding like "just the notes".

MRC

Sophia I recorded a quick sequence what I meant.

Certainly, with the digital piano in this acoustic, the piece sounds very dry.

Before adding any pedal, you could see if your digital piano has a setting that gives more resonance. Most have some choices that simulate different acoustics: small hall, large hall, church... You may find something that makes the general sound more pleasing.

It's worth listening to the original version for string quartet. You can hear three levels:

The melody played by the first violin
The bass line played by the cello, melodic in it's own right
The accompanying figures played by the second violin and viola, very light and airy

On your digital piano, is it possible to play the bass notes the first of each group of four in the left hand) a little bit louder than the following ones? And can those following notes sound light and airy, like the pizzicato strings? If that works, try adding just a touch of pedal to each bass note.

WieWaldi

Sophia I liked the version without pedal better. The 2nd one sounded a bit mushy to my ears.

MRC

You can certainly use pedal to add richness. The danger for a novice is that the use of the pedal can quickly become indiscriminate. You need to very conscious of when you use the pedal, why you use it and what difference it makes to the sound.

As you rightly say, it would be best to get help from a teacher, but failing that there are several good books on piano pedalling. Here are two classic ones in one volume:

The Art of Pedalling

Sophia

MRC You need to very conscious of when you use the pedal, why you use it and what difference it makes to the sound.

Yes, I see that. Also I think iternabe mentioned a good point, it's a digital piano. The other day I was able to play an acoustic briefly and I was stunned at how the notes kept on ringing a lot longer even without a pedal. So yeah, I don't want to get into super bad habits or hide my lack of of skills but I also want things to sound good 😃

Thanks for mentioning those books, @MRC! At my level I definitely don't think it's time to consider the ART of pedaling just yet - I'm still at the light switch stage (on or off), haha. That's why this entire thread was ever so interesting for me too 😃

iternabe

Sophia it's a digital piano. The other day I was able to play an acoustic briefly and I was stunned at how the notes kept on ringing a lot longer even without a pedal.

I have read that to get true legato effect, merely no gap between the notes may not be enough. Instead the notes needs to overlap a little bit. To do so, in addition to finger movement, the wrist need to get involved, too. Use the wrist to lead the fingers with rotation or lateral movement.

More experienced players please chime in if this makes sense or not. Maybe worth a try?

Sophia

MRC It's worth listening to the original version for string quartet.

Oh yes, I was actually very familiar with the original violin version. I always loved it, it's hauntingly beautiful. I was actually a little shocked how mechanical my version sounds. I know I only just started the piece three days ago and I just cobbled together a quick demo for pedaling reasons only, but that is no excuse for soulless playing ^_^

MRC Most have some choices that simulate different acoustics: small hall, large hall, church... You may find something that makes the general sound more pleasing.

Our piano does indeed have a few settings, varying from "room" to "stage". But even the stage setting still sounds a little muffled. It probably doesn't help that the piano itself is in a very small room with rather poor acoustics. And it's close to 30 years old, so it's probably in the very early stages of what was possible digitally back then. At least I CAN practice, that's the main thing 🙂

MRC On your digital piano, is it possible to play the bass notes the first of each group of four in the left hand) a little bit louder than the following ones? And can those following notes sound light and airy, like the pizzicato strings? If that works, try adding just a touch of pedal to each bass note.

ranjit The semiquavers in the LH should kind of decrescendo each time for instance and the RH should "sing" more.

Thank you both for those suggestions. I agree, I should probably work on making it sound more lyrical first, and then work on the pedal later. It's a very sensual piece and it doesn't deserve to be butchered by such clunky playing 😃

Sophia

Right, it should be interesting what can be said about that 🙂 Like yourself I'm really grateful to have this forum. I'm not overly fussed about getting it right, but that doesn't mean I want to get it wrong. Okay that sounded weirder than I meant it, lol. What I mean to say I'm not truly sweating it, but given the choice, I'd rather learn to do things correctly!

rogerch

I'm not a teacher, I learned to play legato when I was a kid, and I'm an amateur with perhaps not the greatest technique so take the below with a grain of salt.

I played slow legato and watched my fingers. One finger releases at the same time the other finger presses. The notes sound connected but not blurred. I took a video but I'm not going to share it here because I think you'd be better off watching a video on playing legato from a piano teacher on youtube. 🙂

When I play I move my elbow and wrist around. But I don't think I'm doing it for legato. My elbow and wrist also move when I play detached, albeit somewhat differently. The reason I'm moving my elbow and wrist is to get my fingers in the right place so I can play evenly. Having the elbow and wrist involved is critical for playing evenly at a faster tempo.

Sgisela

@Sophia - I think you’re doing great for this being 3 days into learning the piece. I think it sounds better — and more consistent with the classical character of the piece — without the pedal. For instance, I just find it a bit weird to hear the Alberti bass pedaled over, in this kind of music. So if you’re asking for my opinion, I’d continue practicing without. Once you’ve got the piece near completion, you can maybe add in a tiny bit of pedaling in very strategic places. But if it were me, I’d really minimize the pedaling in a piece like this.

Musically, I would really pay attention to the phrases/lines and articulation. As you really get the piece into your hands, I would think about having a more delicate touch. With regard to articulation, when you have an eighth note as the last note under a slur, you are coming off of it very quickly, to the point that it sounds a little staccato. The character of the piece is graceful and flowing, with long-ish lines, so I think you want to give the notes their full value, as much as possible. I think one of the things you may like about the pedal is that it is lengthening those notes a little bit, but you should be able to do that just by staying on them a little longer/not coming off too quickly.

Anyways, that’s my 2 cents.

Sophia

Two cents??? Pfft I consider that million dollar advice 🥰 Thank you!
I will practice the piece without pedal and see if I can apply all the advice given. There are a few places later on where the pedal is used, but I think that is just to cover some large leaps.

And Roger, with your half a century experience you may call yourself an expert on anything piano related 😁

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