Beginner question about pedal timing

iternabe
I am currently in a similar position and try to get my own pedaling right. The sheet music below is what I got. When I do the chord change, my LH needs too much of a time to reach the new position. My hand isn't slower then the hand of the Christian (he is the YouTube teacher), but his version sounds way smoother => he uses pedal, but don't talk about it. (Nor writes it in sheet music - he must assume we beginners are pedaling experts, haha. Or he thinks it is not important at this beginner stage.)

I scribbled with a pencil my own pedal markings, basically the pedal goes down with the last RH note before the chord change. So far so good, but the Eb7 chord keeps me struggling because the RH is silent until the D7 chord. And it is fast pedal action because this are quarter chords. In this bar, pedal down timings are 2¹/₂, 3¹/₂ and 4¹/₂. Lifting the pedal together with playing the new chord is really something, one can train, and I see(or hear) already some success by myself.

WieWaldi I was taught to use the shortcut "P" to indicate pedal and "X" to lift. It's a little shorter than "Ped" if that saves you some writing. I can see how the horizonal line indicating the exact duration of the pedal can be helpful for beginners though!

Great thread, folks. Pedalling is one of my serious weaknesses ...

Having been playing piano for over 50 years now, probably closer to 55, I find it interesting that I haven't a clue exactly "how" I use the sustain pedal though I use a lot.

I do sometimes play without it for short bits, mostly when I'm going through something I want to play more precisely and don't want the sustain to muddy the sound. I have thought that if something happened that the sustain pedal quit working, there would be numbers in our repertoire that I think I could get through and have them sound decent. Hopefully, I'll never have one quit during a concert. (I usually do have an extra somewhere not that far away.)

To add to the complexity, I do sometimes play piano and strings together and the sustain works the same with both sounds. It can be interesting when you'd kinda like the strings to sustain and the piano not to, or vice versa but have one keyboard and one sustain pedal to make it all happen. That can be fun.

iternabe Much better pedaling this time. Really good progress in a very short amount of time.

Only at the very first pedaling (0:05), you lifted it a bit too early to be completely legato. All others later in the video were good.

My guess is, your subconscious mind (what you have learned so far) was winning the first pedaling and then the conscious mind (what you are re-learning now) won the rest.
You should practice this for the next days to make it a habit in the long run. You must re-program your subconscious mind so you can run it on autopilot. But be aware, you learned something incorrect before and there is always the risk you are falling back to it - especially if you are stressed by learning new stuff and the conscious mind is too busy for correcting the old habit.

Sophia
You can add some pedal to make a piece sound nicer but only after you have the learned it as well as you can to make sure it's not a crutch that covers up your flaws.

iternabe When you mention the piece sounds very bare with pedal, do you mean the sound feels thin (lack of sonority), or do you mean notes feels unconnected due to inability to achieve true legato? Also, this is on a digital piano, right?

I think the former. I recorded a quick sequence what I meant... first as written (no pedal), then in the repeat how I would play it. As Bart said it just sounds nice (in my ears) that way... but I'm curious as to your opinion! Yes, it's a digital piano where the sound (I think) dies a little more quickly than an acoustic would.

You can certainly use pedal to add richness. The danger for a novice is that the use of the pedal can quickly become indiscriminate. You need to very conscious of when you use the pedal, why you use it and what difference it makes to the sound.

As you rightly say, it would be best to get help from a teacher, but failing that there are several good books on piano pedalling. Here are two classic ones in one volume:

The Art of Pedalling

MRC You need to very conscious of when you use the pedal, why you use it and what difference it makes to the sound.

Yes, I see that. Also I think iternabe mentioned a good point, it's a digital piano. The other day I was able to play an acoustic briefly and I was stunned at how the notes kept on ringing a lot longer even without a pedal. So yeah, I don't want to get into super bad habits or hide my lack of of skills but I also want things to sound good

Thanks for mentioning those books, @MRC! At my level I definitely don't think it's time to consider the ART of pedaling just yet - I'm still at the light switch stage (on or off), haha. That's why this entire thread was ever so interesting for me too

Sophia That specific piece has a rather Mozartian texture. Pedal is generally left to the discernment of the player within reason. On an acoustic piano, that could sound good without the pedal if it's played at a relatively fast tempo and with good phrasing. The semiquavers in the LH should kind of decrescendo each time for instance and the RH should "sing" more.

I only tend to use the suggestion not to use pedal at the initial stages if it still sounds good. Otherwise, I might start out with minimal pedal, or "standard" pedal (like once per chord, etc.). If you play a Chopin Nocturne with no pedal, it sounds incredibly choppy and doesn't really help you or give you a better idea of how to play the piece imo, unless it's done for a short while in a very targeted fashion or something. It's important not to add pedal too soon, but it's also important that your practice never ends up sounding like "just the notes".

Sophia I recorded a quick sequence what I meant.

Certainly, with the digital piano in this acoustic, the piece sounds very dry.

Before adding any pedal, you could see if your digital piano has a setting that gives more resonance. Most have some choices that simulate different acoustics: small hall, large hall, church... You may find something that makes the general sound more pleasing.

It's worth listening to the original version for string quartet. You can hear three levels:

1. The melody played by the first violin
2. The bass line played by the cello, melodic in it's own right
3. The accompanying figures played by the second violin and viola, very light and airy

On your digital piano, is it possible to play the bass notes the first of each group of four in the left hand) a little bit louder than the following ones? And can those following notes sound light and airy, like the pizzicato strings? If that works, try adding just a touch of pedal to each bass note.

MRC It's worth listening to the original version for string quartet.

Oh yes, I was actually very familiar with the original violin version. I always loved it, it's hauntingly beautiful. I was actually a little shocked how mechanical my version sounds. I know I only just started the piece three days ago and I just cobbled together a quick demo for pedaling reasons only, but that is no excuse for soulless playing ^_^

MRC Most have some choices that simulate different acoustics: small hall, large hall, church... You may find something that makes the general sound more pleasing.

Our piano does indeed have a few settings, varying from "room" to "stage". But even the stage setting still sounds a little muffled. It probably doesn't help that the piano itself is in a very small room with rather poor acoustics. And it's close to 30 years old, so it's probably in the very early stages of what was possible digitally back then. At least I CAN practice, that's the main thing

MRC On your digital piano, is it possible to play the bass notes the first of each group of four in the left hand) a little bit louder than the following ones? And can those following notes sound light and airy, like the pizzicato strings? If that works, try adding just a touch of pedal to each bass note.

ranjit The semiquavers in the LH should kind of decrescendo each time for instance and the RH should "sing" more.

Thank you both for those suggestions. I agree, I should probably work on making it sound more lyrical first, and then work on the pedal later. It's a very sensual piece and it doesn't deserve to be butchered by such clunky playing