Here is how I have been taught by Let's Play Piano Methods YouTube channel about pedal timing.

At the beginning of pedal mark, in most cases, play the note(s) first, then press the pedal down. The reason, as I understand, is if pedal is pressed down simultaneously or before the note(s), there will be sympathetic resonance from other strings, which may not be desirable (unless you want it that way).

At the end of pedal mark, play the note(s), then release the pedal.

Now, look at the example in this piece:

So, at the beginning of measure 2, I play the F chord, then press the pedal down. At the beginning of measure 3, I play GD, then release pedal. My question about the timing is around the C chord in measure 2. So far I have heard two ways to do it:

  1. hold the pedal down, play the C chord, then pedal up and down quickly
  2. pedal up and play C chord simultaneously, then pedal down

Which way is better, or more correct, and why?

    I'm as much as beginner as you are, but I believe #1 is the correct way to play overlapping pedaling...

    Faber only says that the pedal mark means to press the pedal.
    Skoove says to press the pedal with the note.
    Other sources say to play the note first, then pedal.
    A few others say the opposite, pedal first, then play the note.

    I think when to pedal depends both on the piece and where you are in the piece. If you want an individual note to stand out, don't use sustain. Also lift when the sustain begins to muddy the sound.

    In the case of the F in your image, I'd pedal first to give the treble F / bass A/C chord some resonance for the half note, lift briefly and then pedal again to hold the treble E / Bass G/C chord until the upcoming treble D/bass G and lift before that to give clarity to those notes before continuing on in the measure.

    A sort of "Thrum!" "Thrum!" "melody..." sequence.

    This gives depth and resonance for the individual chords as marked. It makes no sense to pedal until after the notes at the end pedal mark, you just chop them off anyway when you lift.

    iternabe So far I have heard two ways to do it:

    1. hold the pedal down, play the C chord, then pedal up and down quickly
    2. pedal up and play C chord simultaneously, then pedal down

    Which way is better, or more correct, and why?

    Play F. Then pedal down.
    Play C and pedal up simultaneously. Then pedal down again.
    Play 3rd bar and pedal up simultaneously.

    IMO, the ability to "play a note and pedal up simultaneously" is the key to keep it legato and avoid unpleasant resonances.

    Edit: I don't use pedal, this means I am anything but an expert. But still I claim to be right, here.

        Thought about this some more and revised.

        Coordinating the pedal is a tricky thing to learn. I think the difference between #1 and #2 in how you stated it, ends up being about what helps you get the correct effect (whether you have a tendency to release too early or too late). What you are trying to do is to create a legato effect. So you shouldn’t raise the pedal before you play the next note, but you also don’t want to hold it too long, as things will get blurry. So whether you think of this as raising the pedal immediately after you play the next note and then lowering it again, or just as you play the next note, you could get the same result.

        For me, I tend to think of this as #1. I think a lot of beginners tend to clear the pedal too early (they raise the pedal as they release/llift OFF the note, not as they play the next note), so thinking of the change as immediately after playing can help with this.

        Perhaps it is helpful to remember the purpose, which is to get a legato effect.
        There is a pretty good explanation of legato pedaling here:
        https://crosseyedpianist.com/2012/09/16/mysteries-of-the-sustain-pedal/

        The author uses the ‘at the same time’ (#2) framing, but again, I think that how you choose to think about this should depend a little on whether you have a tendency to change the pedal too early or too late.

        I hope this helps!

          Sgisela Thanks! Your explanation about the desired effect and the thought process really helps a lot!

            The correct use of the pedal is the study of a lifetime! In the situation you show here, it's good to first learn the pure legato pedalling, which is well described by Sgisela. But other forms of pedalling can also be used: you just need to be very aware of the differences they make in the sound.

            • If you lift the pedal just a split second before you play the next note, there will be a very slight gap in the sound. This makes the chords sound just a bit articulated. If you compare it to a bowed string instrument such as the violin, it's like a change of bow direction.

            • If you lift the pedal just after having played the note, there will be blurring. I wouldn't consider such blurring appropriate here, but in other music it may be just what you need.

            There are more subtle techniques that you'll learn later, but if you master these three, which might be called "quasi-legato", "legato" and "legatissimo", you will be off to a good start.

            One really important thing: once you have lifted the pedal, you do not need to depress it again immediately. Many pianists get into the habit of making a very fast up-down movement at each harmony change. There are two drawbacks to doing this:

            • If you depress the pedal again too soon, you may not give the dampers the time to completely stop the vibrations of the strings. This muddies the sound.
            • Depressing the pedal very fast can be noisy. in the worst cases, you can hear the pianist stamp on the pedal.

            In the example you give, you have lots of time to depress the pedal. Try waiting at least for the duration of an eighth note, then depress it slowly.

              MRC One really important thing: once you have lifted the pedal, you do not need to depress it again immediately. Many pianists get into the habit of making a very fast up-down movement at each harmony change. There are two drawbacks to doing this:

              If you depress the pedal again too soon, you may not give the dampers the time to completely stop the vibrations of the strings. This muddies the sound.
              Depressing the pedal very fast can be noisy. in the worst cases, you can hear the pianist stamp on the pedal.

              In the example you give, you have lots of time to depress the pedal. Try waiting at least for the duration of an eighth note, then depress it slowly.

              OMG I am guilty of exactly this! @MRC Thank you so much for pointing this out. I feel lucky to have the opportunity to catch and correct this error early 🙂

                On the other hand, if you listen really carefully, if it sounds right it is right. It shouldn't sound as if the notes are becoming too blurred, and you certainly don't want one chord or harmony bleeding over into another (unless that's the desired sound, but that would be less likely). Hopefully your piano is in good enough adjustment that you can alter not just the start/stop/restart but the degree, as in "half pedaling". I guess that involves the ability of the dampers to just lightly graze the strings, so that their undampened resonance is muted slightly.
                In any case, let your ear be your guide! 🙂

                  WieWaldi Play C and pedal up simultaneously. Then pedal down again.

                  This is a good guideline to start with!

                  I echo those who say to listen and hear if it sounds right. Hopefully you're able to tell.

                      pseudonym58 My piano is digital 😉 It does have a good pedal that can do half pedaling.

                      Good point on listen carefully and to ensure it sounds right. That does imply that I know what sounds right, which I probably did not before I studied I read the detailed answers in this thread. I think I do now. The pedal marking in my example is "legato pedal", which is to make sure there is no gap between the F chord and C chord. And it's necessary because the bass C note in both chord cannot be connected without pedal. Therefore, I suppose what I should listen for is: 1) no gap between the 2 chords, and 2) as little of blurring of F chord into the C chord in the 3rd beat as possible.

                        twocats Yes. You will find a ton of information about the correct pedaling. But a ton of information is too much to begin with. This is why I summarize evering with a simple sentence:

                        WieWaldi IMO, the ability to "play a note and pedal up simultaneously" is the key to keep it legato and avoid unpleasant resonances.

                        There is no need to explain what happens, if you release the pedal to early. Or too late. It is unnecessary to think about it. Just press the key (or the chord, to be more precise) and simultaneously release the pedal.

                        Oh, and this one is also very important:

                        MRC One really important thing: once you have lifted the pedal, you do not need to depress it again immediately. Many pianists get into the habit of making a very fast up-down movement at each harmony change. There are two drawbacks to doing this...

                        I would call this the 2nd step. To master this, it requires the ear. And there is no fit-to-everything receipe. This is in my opinion much harder to do than the 1st step. Because the later you press the pedal, the less notes are prone to get mushy.

                        I think the 1st step (lifting pedal together with key/chord -down) is a way more easy and straightforward step, that does not require decission making or involving the ear. Just training hand/leg coordination. It's plain stupid simple.

                              When I started with my teacher many moons ago, teaching proper pedal and understanding pedal was one of his priorities. That is different than just rules about what to lift or raise when. Listening and what to listen for was part of it. I'll try to give a comprehensive summary - including the obvious. 😉

                              mechanically: The piano strings vibrate when struck by the hammer, and stop vibrating when the dampers fall on them. If you pluck a guitar string and then put your palm in the string, you stop the vibration. When you press a key, the damper over the respective string is lifted, and then the hammer sails over striking the string making it ring. When you release the key, the sound stops. UNLESS something else holds the damper off the string(s) - that being the right damper pedal. Therefore your hand and your foot take turns lifting the damper off the string(s).

                              sound: For a legato sound, you want one note to almost blend into the next note so that there is no gap in the sound. Supposing you're playing a C chord, then Dm, then Em. The C chord is ringing as you move your hand over to the Dm chord because of the pedal. At the moment that you strike Dm, you don't want C to blend in with Dm, so that's the moment you "erase" the C by lifting the pedal. You immediately lower the pedal to catch your new Dm chord. Once the pedal is holding up the dampers - allowing Dm to continue ringing - you can release your hand from the cord / finger from the note.

                              Use your ears to guide you. When you can lift your hand is determined by when the new notes are "caught by the pedal" which actually means, when the pedal is holding up the dampers. Also use your ears to guide you about when to lift the pedal.

                              Experiment with joining two notes or two chords using the pedal, with trade-off of hand and foot, to discover different effects, and to start hearing how an old sound sustains or not. When I began, I was shocked by what I was not yet hearing. I'm still learning to "hear".

                              I should add that digital pianos are programmed to simulate what I described, along with mechanical sensors sending signals to the programmed electronic portions.

                              Thank you all for the really helpful advice! I do feel I need to train my listening skill. You can see the pedal action in the video below. How does it sound to you?

                                iternabe I think your pedal sounds good, nothing sounds off to me! Your left and right hands aren't always landing at the same time though. The screen is small but it's always when you get to (I think) A in the left hand and C in the right hand 🙂

                                    twocats Your left and right hands aren't always landing at the same time though.

                                    Sharp eye! I think maybe it happens when I try to play the left hand softer? MIDI keyboard does show it clearer. But I haven't noticed it myself, so thanks a lot for point this out.

                                    I do realize I have other issues not hitting all notes of a chord at the exact same time, especially when playing soft. I have short pinkies, but I think my chord unevenness (and sometimes even ghost note) is not limited just to the little fingers. Still trying to figure out how to solve that problem.

                                        iternabe I actually heard it, I didn't see it, and I think it happened in all of the variations. I was trying to figure out which notes to more easily identify it for you. Since this is happening when you have a single note in the left and right hands it doesn't seem like a hand size issue, and maybe now that you're aware of it, it'll be better 🙂

                                          iternabe I listened to your video, and it sounds good. I like it.
                                          And I saw your video (great recording, btw 👍️) and could make out 4 spots in total you should investigate:

                                          0:14 pedal up together with keys
                                          0:32 pedal up together with keys
                                          0:56 pedal up together with keys
                                          Those were 3x the same phrase, where the pedal had no effect. Almost no effect, because it seems the pedal up is a bit slower than the hand up. But just a little slower. I doubt there is an audible difference.
                                          Does it sound bad? No.
                                          Would it sound bad if you hadn't pedaled this at all? No.
                                          The ear won't help you here to detect a mistake in technique. Seems like you practiced it that way. And you know:
                                          Practice does't make perfect. Practice makes permanent.

                                          1:09 pedal down too early. You blurred E into C-G-E'-C" chord. This does also not sound bad, as it is makes a C-E-G triad. And C-E-G is a Major triad. It is harmonic. But I am not sure if this was intended.

                                          And I have seen some spots with the pedal going down together with you hands. In thoses situations this wasn't a problem at all because before that no key was pressed at all. But I think key+pedal down could become a bad habit. And it can sound mushy if the music gets more complex.

                                              WieWaldi Thank you for your very detailed observation. Based on what you mentioned and what I see rewatching, it is quite possible that what I thought I was doing and what I actually did were different. I do need to investigate those spots closely. And video is such a great tool here because I can play it in slow-mo or even advance frame by frame to pinpoint what's going on.

                                              I think I am making the beginner mistake by rushing my pedal motions, just like @MRC said. So even I intend to put the pedal down after playing the notes, or lift pedal up as I play the changed chord, my foot was too eager and moved early.

                                              There was only one place that I did not rush the pedal, which is what you noticed in the last phrase.

                                              Pedal mark begins at the E but I only pushed it down around the second beat of measure 27. Not intentional, but more likely because I was flustered by the end of measure 26 so my brain need to take a breath. But the effect turns out to be exactly as the score intended.