twocats Your left and right hands aren't always landing at the same time though.

Sharp eye! I think maybe it happens when I try to play the left hand softer? MIDI keyboard does show it clearer. But I haven't noticed it myself, so thanks a lot for point this out.

I do realize I have other issues not hitting all notes of a chord at the exact same time, especially when playing soft. I have short pinkies, but I think my chord unevenness (and sometimes even ghost note) is not limited just to the little fingers. Still trying to figure out how to solve that problem.

      iternabe I actually heard it, I didn't see it, and I think it happened in all of the variations. I was trying to figure out which notes to more easily identify it for you. Since this is happening when you have a single note in the left and right hands it doesn't seem like a hand size issue, and maybe now that you're aware of it, it'll be better 🙂

        iternabe I listened to your video, and it sounds good. I like it.
        And I saw your video (great recording, btw 👍️) and could make out 4 spots in total you should investigate:

        0:14 pedal up together with keys
        0:32 pedal up together with keys
        0:56 pedal up together with keys
        Those were 3x the same phrase, where the pedal had no effect. Almost no effect, because it seems the pedal up is a bit slower than the hand up. But just a little slower. I doubt there is an audible difference.
        Does it sound bad? No.
        Would it sound bad if you hadn't pedaled this at all? No.
        The ear won't help you here to detect a mistake in technique. Seems like you practiced it that way. And you know:
        Practice does't make perfect. Practice makes permanent.

        1:09 pedal down too early. You blurred E into C-G-E'-C" chord. This does also not sound bad, as it is makes a C-E-G triad. And C-E-G is a Major triad. It is harmonic. But I am not sure if this was intended.

        And I have seen some spots with the pedal going down together with you hands. In thoses situations this wasn't a problem at all because before that no key was pressed at all. But I think key+pedal down could become a bad habit. And it can sound mushy if the music gets more complex.

            WieWaldi Thank you for your very detailed observation. Based on what you mentioned and what I see rewatching, it is quite possible that what I thought I was doing and what I actually did were different. I do need to investigate those spots closely. And video is such a great tool here because I can play it in slow-mo or even advance frame by frame to pinpoint what's going on.

            I think I am making the beginner mistake by rushing my pedal motions, just like @MRC said. So even I intend to put the pedal down after playing the notes, or lift pedal up as I play the changed chord, my foot was too eager and moved early.

            There was only one place that I did not rush the pedal, which is what you noticed in the last phrase.

            Pedal mark begins at the E but I only pushed it down around the second beat of measure 27. Not intentional, but more likely because I was flustered by the end of measure 26 so my brain need to take a breath. But the effect turns out to be exactly as the score intended.

                iternabe
                I am currently in a similar position and try to get my own pedaling right. The sheet music below is what I got. When I do the chord change, my LH needs too much of a time to reach the new position. My hand isn't slower then the hand of the Christian (he is the YouTube teacher), but his version sounds way smoother => he uses pedal, but don't talk about it. (Nor writes it in sheet music - he must assume we beginners are pedaling experts, haha. Or he thinks it is not important at this beginner stage.)

                I scribbled with a pencil my own pedal markings, basically the pedal goes down with the last RH note before the chord change. So far so good, but the Eb7 chord keeps me struggling because the RH is silent until the D7 chord. And it is fast pedal action because this are quarter chords. In this bar, pedal down timings are 21/2, 31/2 and 41/2🤯. Lifting the pedal together with playing the new chord is really something, one can train, and I see(or hear) already some success by myself. 😏

                    WieWaldi I was taught to use the shortcut "P" to indicate pedal and "X" to lift. It's a little shorter than "Ped" if that saves you some writing. I can see how the horizonal line indicating the exact duration of the pedal can be helpful for beginners though!

                      Great thread, folks. Pedalling is one of my serious weaknesses ...

                      Enthusiastic but mediocre amateur.

                      Having been playing piano for over 50 years now, probably closer to 55, I find it interesting that I haven't a clue exactly "how" I use the sustain pedal though I use a lot.

                      I do sometimes play without it for short bits, mostly when I'm going through something I want to play more precisely and don't want the sustain to muddy the sound. I have thought that if something happened that the sustain pedal quit working, there would be numbers in our repertoire that I think I could get through and have them sound decent. Hopefully, I'll never have one quit during a concert. (I usually do have an extra somewhere not that far away.)

                      To add to the complexity, I do sometimes play piano and strings together and the sustain works the same with both sounds. It can be interesting when you'd kinda like the strings to sustain and the piano not to, or vice versa but have one keyboard and one sustain pedal to make it all happen. That can be fun. 🙂

                      • TC3 likes this.

                      iternabe I think @WieWaldi pointed out ones where you very clearly lifted the pedal too early. What I noticed was that you tended to do this when you were playing forte. When this same figure was repeated at softer dynamics, you played it just fine or pretty close (the one at around 5 seconds was very nice; the one around 21s was maybe a touch too early but very very close).

                      Anyways, my sense is that you have a tendency to raise the pedal too early, and probably when you’re very focused on the pedal, you do it correctly, but when you’re focusing on some other things (like the dynamics), then you revert back to your tendencies. I think what happens is that there is a strong feeling in the body for the foot to mimic what the arm/hand are doing; parts of the body like to mirror each others’ motions. So you are lifting your foot at the same time you are lifting your fingers off the notes. I think you could try working on this much more slowly, paying very close attention to the sound and to how the arm/finger pressing DOWN triggers the foot to come UP. You will get there!

                        @WieWaldi @Sgisela I gave it another try tonight. I was trying to consciously delay the pedal down. Still trying to time the pedal lift with chord change - maybe slightly not as rushed as before.

                        Here is take 2:

                          @iternabe the pedaling sounded correct in the 2nd version.

                          I should also add: this and my earlier comment were about doing legato pedaling, as was indicated in the screenshot of the score you attached, and doing this as your score indicated.

                          However, I think a musical argument could be made for playing it without pedal and leaving a very slight separation between those chords, or for varying the pedaling of the chords between the variations. Musically, I thought the way you played it the first time sounded very reasonable, and the differences in pedaling added some interest to the variations. I quickly glanced at the original Brahms score, and in the first variation these chords are marked tenuto, so it would be appropriate to not play these chords in a full legato manner, but rather with a tiny separation between the chords.

                          All that said, at this stage, I think the method book wants you to do legato pedaling in those spots. You will use legato pedaling a lot, so it’s worth investing the time to feel very comfortable with it. You’re off to a great start!

                            iternabe Much better pedaling this time. Really good progress in a very short amount of time. 👍

                            Only at the very first pedaling (0:05), you lifted it a bit too early to be completely legato. All others later in the video were good.

                            My guess is, your subconscious mind (what you have learned so far) was winning the first pedaling and then the conscious mind (what you are re-learning now) won the rest.
                            You should practice this for the next days to make it a habit in the long run. You must re-program your subconscious mind so you can run it on autopilot. But be aware, you learned something incorrect before and there is always the risk you are falling back to it - especially if you are stressed by learning new stuff and the conscious mind is too busy for correcting the old habit.

                                Sgisela Thank you for the very clear explanation of the musical argument on pedaling. Yours echo my YouTube teacher who also frequently question the pedaling choice made by the Faber book. In some pieces he strongly disagree. For this one, he's okay if student want to practice the legato pedal. I especially like your idea of varying the pedaling between variations. My mother-in-law does Chinese caligraphy, and one thing she mentioned when the same character occurs multiple times on a scroll, they should all be written slightly different. Artists think alike 🙂

                                WieWaldi You read my mind! And I think you are right. I feel I am always more nervous at the beginning of a piece. Getting the opening notes out at the correct dynamics (especially when soft) is hard and takes so much concentration. Therefore my mind was probably not fully refocused on pedaling for that first instance. Now I realize when tweaking particular technique, it really needs all other parts of the playing to be on auto pilot.

                                I am so glad I asked this pedaling question. You guys are awesome! And I shall be eternally grateful.

                                    9 days later

                                    I actually have a question about pedaling as well. I hope you don't me using your thread for that @iternabe 😊 I just don't think it merits a topic on its own.

                                    Right now I'm practicing a piece that calls for no pedalling, except in one or two tiny spots. However I'm finding it sounds very bare without it, I much prefer the richness of the added pedal.

                                    So I'm on the fence whether adding the pedal is considered "cheating" to cover up my lack of being able to make it sound good without, or whether it's considered "artistic license" to do as I please 😄

                                    I also realize that I have reached a stage where these type of questions are probably best presented to a teacher, but due to circumstances you guys are all I have so I'm leaving it here 😊

                                      Sophia I don‘t mind at all.

                                      When you mention the piece sounds very bare with pedal, do you mean the sound feels thin (lack of sonority), or do you mean notes feels unconnected due to inability to achieve true legato? Also, this is on a digital piano, right?

                                          Sophia
                                          You can add some pedal to make a piece sound nicer but only after you have the learned it as well as you can to make sure it's not a crutch that covers up your flaws.

                                            iternabe When you mention the piece sounds very bare with pedal, do you mean the sound feels thin (lack of sonority), or do you mean notes feels unconnected due to inability to achieve true legato? Also, this is on a digital piano, right?

                                            I think the former. I recorded a quick sequence what I meant... first as written (no pedal), then in the repeat how I would play it. As Bart said it just sounds nice (in my ears) that way... but I'm curious as to your opinion! Yes, it's a digital piano where the sound (I think) dies a little more quickly than an acoustic would.

                                                You can certainly use pedal to add richness. The danger for a novice is that the use of the pedal can quickly become indiscriminate. You need to very conscious of when you use the pedal, why you use it and what difference it makes to the sound.

                                                As you rightly say, it would be best to get help from a teacher, but failing that there are several good books on piano pedalling. Here are two classic ones in one volume:

                                                The Art of Pedalling

                                                  MRC You need to very conscious of when you use the pedal, why you use it and what difference it makes to the sound.

                                                  Yes, I see that. Also I think iternabe mentioned a good point, it's a digital piano. The other day I was able to play an acoustic briefly and I was stunned at how the notes kept on ringing a lot longer even without a pedal. So yeah, I don't want to get into super bad habits or hide my lack of of skills but I also want things to sound good 😃

                                                  Thanks for mentioning those books, @MRC! At my level I definitely don't think it's time to consider the ART of pedaling just yet - I'm still at the light switch stage (on or off), haha. That's why this entire thread was ever so interesting for me too 😃

                                                      Sophia That specific piece has a rather Mozartian texture. Pedal is generally left to the discernment of the player within reason. On an acoustic piano, that could sound good without the pedal if it's played at a relatively fast tempo and with good phrasing. The semiquavers in the LH should kind of decrescendo each time for instance and the RH should "sing" more.

                                                      I only tend to use the suggestion not to use pedal at the initial stages if it still sounds good. Otherwise, I might start out with minimal pedal, or "standard" pedal (like once per chord, etc.). If you play a Chopin Nocturne with no pedal, it sounds incredibly choppy and doesn't really help you or give you a better idea of how to play the piece imo, unless it's done for a short while in a very targeted fashion or something. It's important not to add pedal too soon, but it's also important that your practice never ends up sounding like "just the notes".