Steady pulse

There is an app called TimeGuru which you can set to gradually mute more and more beats, forcing you to rely on your interior pulse while still providing the feedback to check that you are still on time.
This video has several good advice on keeping the pulse

I found it helpful to clap along with the pulse with songs that you're familiar with, or recordings of pieces like the one you're working on.

ranjit Yes, I think it's a very important skill to be able to actively hear the rhythm and clap or dance along to an external source. There are many ways to hone this ability, including things like dancing or making music together with others either singing or playing.

But playing with good rhythm requires multiple skills and when we notice that we have "sloppy rhythm" I think it's necessary to try to pinpoint what exactly the problem is in order to be able to improve efficiently. If it's difficult to play along with a ticking metronome the problem can be that we find it difficult to align to an external rhythm (there's currently another thread about that) or it can be that the piece is a stretch of our current ability to read or technically perform the movements so we struggle to keep up with the metronome clicking away at a speed that is simply too fast for us at the moment. It can also be that we didn't realize that we actually don't keep a steady internal rhythm, perhaps because the character or difficulty of the piece varies throughout or that we don't know all parts of it equally well. Or we may misjudge the actual amount of accelerando and ritardando we do.

I may have misunderstood the OP, and I apologize if I jumped to conclusions, but I interpreted the problem to be more along the lines of not being able to keep a steady pulse without an external source. That was what my previous reply addressed.

Based on the video I linked to, it seems to be the experience of dr Molly Gebrian that her students typically eventually learn to play along with a metronome and she said that only after having reached that stage they're ready to work on steadying their internal pulse, which looking at the brain activity is a more complex task than synchronizing to an external beat.

That said, studies indicate a distribution in rhythmic ability among people, and as hobbyists statistically a few will likely have to come to terms with that they will never excel rhythmically, but hopefully be able to enjoy playing anyway. In a study linked to by @Sophia (iirc) in the thread about sense of rhythm they said that a large majority of the people who had self-identified as lacking rhythm actually possessed the ability to eventually learn to clap along in time but a minority of around 3% of the population didn't achieve this even with practice. This seems like a plausible figure to me, just judging by my own experience. Growing up from a preschooler and well into my thirties I used to dance regularly, learning a number of different dances in formal classes as well as participating in open "practice evenings" or "social dance nights" or even week-long dance camps where learners and teachers of vastly different levels would dance together. As adults, in classes of typically 15-20 pairs where we rotated so that I as a female would dance with each of the guys at some point, there would often be 1 or 2 who even after years of dancing sometimes would ask me to count aloud as they themselves were unable to hear the downbeats. Didn't stop them from enjoying dancing, though. Likewise, having played with school and amateur orchestras, some of which had no formal audition procedure at all, there could be players who had played for a long time but had varying degrees of difficulty with timing. Nonetheless they enjoyed their instrumental hobby and were usually valued members of the group.

Having started with dance and eurythmics classes at a young age and school music, children's choirs and recorder group lessons not that much later, I don't remember if I personally ever had problems perceiving or synchronizing to external rhythms. So whatever (little) focused rhythm practice I've done over the years has instead been mostly towards keeping a constant internal pulse over extended time spans (my weakest point when it comes to rhythm) and a tiny bit towards increasing the accuracy of executing rhythms exactly as written (very important in orchestras). I had some ear training software on my computer 20-30 years ago that I used mainly to practice sight-singing but among other exercises it also had a part where you should tap, clap or play a randomly generated rhythm and get feedback on the accuracy. I assume there must be several similar apps or online sites nowadays.

Sorry about rambling post, couldn't sleep...

Don't beat yourself up too hard.

I have noticed that there are certain things that can be challenging for me and I typically have no real problem with keeping a rhythm going. Certain things can be harder to hear and grapple with mentally. It took me a while to feel comfortable with 5/4 time and the metronome on my keyboard helped me to work through some of the timing stuff, like a triplet against a 5 beat measure and not lose the beat, skip a beat, or add a beat. Certain pieces of music might also sound quite standard when casually listening but aren't quite as simple when you get closer. "Linus & Lucy" is an example of that.

It helps that I normally play in a band with a drummer being one of the other members. Helps to keep me honest. Sometimes I feel a little limited by the lack of freedom to take as many liberties with the timing as I might want to. "Stardust" has a few places where a pause is nice, not a complete stop, but just plowing through doesn't quite feel right, either.

It's fun.

Did you also record yourself to check? I really can't play with a metronome, but when I record myself I listen to the beginning and then go immediately to the last part of the piece to compare the rhythm and most of the time the rhythm is still the same. Maybe not as precise as a metronome but I'm a human being, not a metronome.

Hi Monviso

Lots of good advice here already, but I'll add a few things that may be relevant.
Obviously it's all down to practise, and unless you are very unlucky (and have no time sense at all) you'll improve as you practise more.

Like Bellyman I play in various bands and when I started classical lessons again 18 months ago, my teacher immediately pointed out that I tapped my left foot to keep time. I've had to make a conscious effort to stop that, which is really difficult as I'd been doing it for 45 years or so! But that experience of playing with a rhythm section has helped my sense of time a lot.

There are arguments for and against using a metronome. You don't want to sound metronomic. My teacher told me last year not to over practise with the metronome for that very reason. I generally use the metronome to check that I'm starting at about the right tempo, but rarely use it all the way through a piece, as most of the pieces I'm studying for ABRSM grade 8 have rallentando/ritardando/a tempo markings.

Perhaps try practising smaller sections of the piece(s) with the metronome periodically, rather than the whole piece.
We are always our own worst critics, so I suspect that your "more than sloppy" isn't as bad as your post implies.

Cheers

Monviso I still want to learn to play metronomically - even if I never do so “in real life”. I want a secure “skeleton” behind the music. And if I’m breaking the rules, I want to master them first.

Graham Fitch mentioned counting out loud. I came across another video on the same topic and the teacher demonstrated counting out loud while still being able to play musically. After trying it myself, I am convinced this can bring a lot of clarity to understanding and following the rhythm during tricky passages.

Monviso Again, I found it very useful in forcing me to clarify my thinking

Maybe these question from a beginner (me) will help clarify your thinking even more:

• Can you play scales to the metronome accurately, and for how long?
• How about setting to metronome slow and play 2-notes per click, 3-notes per click, 4-notes per click?
• And if you get carried away and drift from the metronome, can you hear the drift and smoothly bring the tempo back in-sync?
• Maybe the last question will answer your doubt of how well you will play in a band?
• Can you sing in time with an accompaniment track?
• If you try to sing musically (hard not to) with some ebb and flow, can you still fall back in sync with accompaniment?

Certainly one doesn't want their playing to come off sounding like a metronome beating away, but I doubt that happens very often--whether intended or not, most of us will be straying from strict mechanical counting. But, imo, one should be capable of playing to the metronome first and then loosening up the count after that skill has been gained.

Has no one been involved with note pushing and pulling????

Forgot to mention ... having the music played as close to fixed tempo as possible ... all of the time -- is also an option. Teachers can say that is a consideration ..... but then they can also show other options or possibilities. And then use where relevant.

SouthPark Thank you for responding.
Pushing is a term mostly to do with rhythm and voice. Examples include dare I say it ... F Sinatra - my way. Where the vocals are pushed forwards, it became one of his signatures. Another the often where the rhythm section or one of the instrument leads the beat or follows, Often it is the bass that leads the beat or say the drums delay, much much finer than the slight swing.
All these things can and are replicated with the piano, whether as part of a band or mostly as soloing. It is too much like AI (God forbid) to follow the patterns directly all of the time, it is where the personal character of each of us can and should be explored. We are live humans and it is the expression that can never be replaced in my mind. You remark about slowing and speeding is relevant too but is not really what pushing and pulling is about; it is a dance around the structure to develop interesting juxtapositions. I will endeavour to find some noteworthy pieces and post here. I realise that this area is for the very advanced but. Often many people are too zealous over time on the beat and the percussive nature of the piano could and should be used to enhance dynamics. Will come back .... Regards Andy