Hi Monviso

Lots of good advice here already, but I'll add a few things that may be relevant.
Obviously it's all down to practise, and unless you are very unlucky (and have no time sense at all) you'll improve as you practise more.

Like Bellyman I play in various bands and when I started classical lessons again 18 months ago, my teacher immediately pointed out that I tapped my left foot to keep time. I've had to make a conscious effort to stop that, which is really difficult as I'd been doing it for 45 years or so! But that experience of playing with a rhythm section has helped my sense of time a lot.

There are arguments for and against using a metronome. You don't want to sound metronomic. My teacher told me last year not to over practise with the metronome for that very reason. I generally use the metronome to check that I'm starting at about the right tempo, but rarely use it all the way through a piece, as most of the pieces I'm studying for ABRSM grade 8 have rallentando/ritardando/a tempo markings.

Perhaps try practising smaller sections of the piece(s) with the metronome periodically, rather than the whole piece.
We are always our own worst critics, so I suspect that your "more than sloppy" isn't as bad as your post implies.

Cheers

Simon
All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

Thank you all very for your responses: you have given me much to think about, and have helped me - start - to crystallise the issue.

My problem is that I'm allowing the pulse to "breathe" too much. If I were playing with another musician, they would be intensely irritated... I might not beat myself up, but they would! Far too often I lag before a beat. And I unconsciously adjust my counting to suit.

I think it's necessary to try to pinpoint what exactly the problem is in order to be able to improve efficiently

is probably the key.

I'm wondering if I get into bad habits when learning pieces, slowing down before slightly trickier chords / passages and then ingraining that into my fingers / ear. In that case using the metronome as I learn, immediately after the first read-through, would probably help.

But I would still like to learn to stop that unconscious adjustment to my counting. I'd like to play with others and survive!
I'm not "rhythm dead" but it's certainly not my strong suit. When I doodle, I enjoy a feeling of painting with sound, but that sound has no architecture. I'd like to acquire that.

Any further thoughts are hugely welcome.

iternabe
🤣 wow! That put a spanner in the works!

Again, I found it very useful in forcing me to clarify my thinking. I still want to learn to play metronomically - even if I never do so “in real life”. I want a secure “skeleton” behind the music. And if I’m breaking the rules, I want to master them first.

Also, it has occurred to me that if I temporarily eschew musicality achieved through ebb and flow, I’ll have to compensate through other means: could be an interesting experiment.

      Monviso I still want to learn to play metronomically - even if I never do so “in real life”. I want a secure “skeleton” behind the music. And if I’m breaking the rules, I want to master them first.

      Graham Fitch mentioned counting out loud. I came across another video on the same topic and the teacher demonstrated counting out loud while still being able to play musically. After trying it myself, I am convinced this can bring a lot of clarity to understanding and following the rhythm during tricky passages.

          Monviso Again, I found it very useful in forcing me to clarify my thinking

          Maybe these question from a beginner (me) will help clarify your thinking even more:

          • Can you play scales to the metronome accurately, and for how long?
          • How about setting to metronome slow and play 2-notes per click, 3-notes per click, 4-notes per click?
          • And if you get carried away and drift from the metronome, can you hear the drift and smoothly bring the tempo back in-sync?
          • Maybe the last question will answer your doubt of how well you will play in a band?
          • Can you sing in time with an accompaniment track?
          • If you try to sing musically (hard not to) with some ebb and flow, can you still fall back in sync with accompaniment?

            Certainly one doesn't want their playing to come off sounding like a metronome beating away, but I doubt that happens very often--whether intended or not, most of us will be straying from strict mechanical counting. But, imo, one should be capable of playing to the metronome first and then loosening up the count after that skill has been gained.

            Has no one been involved with note pushing and pulling????

              Killomiter I haven't ever heard of those particular terms. I think I prefer him to say eg. faster or slower hehe

              But I think there are various choices - such as initial tempo. And then can speed up the playing, and then go back to initial. Or can slow down the playing, and go back to initial. Or even speed up above initial tempo and then slow down to below initial tempo, and then finally go back to initial tempo. Or slow down to below initial tempo, and then speed up to above initial tempo, and then slow back down to initial tempo. These various cases ... and even other ones ... such as at the end of a bit of music - a slow down to below initial tempo, or speed up above initial tempo - for some sorts of music That's what I was 'trying' to say here.

              LINK

              And --- also -- good comment you made Killometer! About 'push/pull'. At the moment, the only thing I found online are words like ' pushing and pulling tempo' - associated with rubato. But still looking for their definition of push and pull -- as in exactly what he/they mean by pushing and pulling. And where they start talking about rubato - they then somehow also begin to use the nature sort of words like ebb and flow heheh. It's possible they're just trying to say something like push ahead/forward on the hand-mechanism/device to increase speed, and pull back on a hand-mechanism/device to reduce speed -- or something.

                  Forgot to mention ... having the music played as close to fixed tempo as possible ... all of the time -- is also an option. Teachers can say that is a consideration ..... but then they can also show other options or possibilities. And then use where relevant.

                  SouthPark Thank you for responding.
                  Pushing is a term mostly to do with rhythm and voice. Examples include dare I say it ... F Sinatra - my way. Where the vocals are pushed forwards, it became one of his signatures. Another the often where the rhythm section or one of the instrument leads the beat or follows, Often it is the bass that leads the beat or say the drums delay, much much finer than the slight swing.
                  All these things can and are replicated with the piano, whether as part of a band or mostly as soloing. It is too much like AI (God forbid) to follow the patterns directly all of the time, it is where the personal character of each of us can and should be explored. We are live humans and it is the expression that can never be replaced in my mind. You remark about slowing and speeding is relevant too but is not really what pushing and pulling is about; it is a dance around the structure to develop interesting juxtapositions. I will endeavour to find some noteworthy pieces and post here. I realise that this area is for the very advanced but. Often many people are too zealous over time on the beat and the percussive nature of the piano could and should be used to enhance dynamics. Will come back .... Regards Andy

                    Here is a solo for you from ne of the best exponents of pushing and pulling around the bass. Tal ... no one better https://fb.watch/tqa9EvC01S/

                    This is very similar to rubato - where by definition we rob time without interfering with the cadence. But I am not sure the physical term Rubato.

                      This one is tight as the ducks bum but if you can hear Tal pushing here and occasssionally the drummer leading into the beat - Enjoy ....

                      Here towards the end where she goes four square with the drummer

                        Here is an example of a solid groove, funk , here the Nord playing ahead of the grove to add emphasis and colour.

                          Killomiter Here is a solo for you from one of the best exponents of pushing and pulling around the bass. Tal ... no one better https://fb.watch/tqa9EvC01S/

                          Awesome music - thanks for posting that one! Excellent exponent! That does sound excellent. Flowing and very natural.

                          Killomiter Here is an example of a solid groove, funk , here the Nord playing ahead of the grove to add emphasis and colour.

                          That's also awesome Andy. Great example - and they are excellent.

                          Killomiter This one is tight as the ducks bum but if you can hear Tal pushing here and occasssionally the drummer leading into the beat - Enjoy ....

                          LINK Youtube

                          I had been following davie504, and didn't know about Tal before. She's amazing. Thanks for providing the excellent examples and explaining as well Andy. And playing the music with Herbie Hancock ... indeed very special.

                                iternabe
                                Thank you for that excellent video - an excellent reminder of the importance of counting out loud. I'm lazy and generally don't bother, but from now on I'll make an effort to do so!

                                I was extremely interested to hear how he counts triplets - 1,o,let - as somehow I'd never come across this, and it is fantastic advice.

                                Also, thanks for your list of questions. Answer to all of them is yes - except that I can't sing for toffee...

                                  Killomiter
                                  The notion that the net balance of the "ebb and flow" should be zero is an interesting reminder that fluctuations go in both directions: both faster and slower.
                                  But in that case, as a linguist (and Italy-lover), it strongly irks me to call the practice "rubato". What is stolen is seldom returned! Call it "prestato". Or even better "concordato"! (Or answer rubato with "intensificato")

                                  I always like being reminded of Chopin's alleged insistence on a rock solid LH accompaniment: it goes in the same sense as my desire for structure underlying fluidity, architecture to avoid sloppiness.

                                  I absolutely loved all the examples you posted. And they reassured me that I might, one day, be able to play with other musicians.

                                      SouthPark
                                      Alongside Killomiter's excellent examples, you've convinced me (despite saying that you prefer to use other terms!): "pushing" and "pulling" is a great way to think of it.

                                        I kind of remember a "class" by Dick Hyman where he was demonstrating some of the things that happened with the development of jazz through history. And I remember of him demonstrating keeping a rock solid time with the left hand (probably stride piano) while changing the timing of the right hand, both slower, falling behind the beat, and faster, jumping ahead of the beat. Ain't gonna lie, my brain hurts when I try to figure out what Dick Hyman is doing. And his hands move so fast my eyes can't keep up. But... he is an incredible player with astounding accuracy and timing.