Monviso I still want to learn to play metronomically - even if I never do so “in real life”. I want a secure “skeleton” behind the music. And if I’m breaking the rules, I want to master them first.

Graham Fitch mentioned counting out loud. I came across another video on the same topic and the teacher demonstrated counting out loud while still being able to play musically. After trying it myself, I am convinced this can bring a lot of clarity to understanding and following the rhythm during tricky passages.

      Monviso Again, I found it very useful in forcing me to clarify my thinking

      Maybe these question from a beginner (me) will help clarify your thinking even more:

      • Can you play scales to the metronome accurately, and for how long?
      • How about setting to metronome slow and play 2-notes per click, 3-notes per click, 4-notes per click?
      • And if you get carried away and drift from the metronome, can you hear the drift and smoothly bring the tempo back in-sync?
      • Maybe the last question will answer your doubt of how well you will play in a band?
      • Can you sing in time with an accompaniment track?
      • If you try to sing musically (hard not to) with some ebb and flow, can you still fall back in sync with accompaniment?

        Certainly one doesn't want their playing to come off sounding like a metronome beating away, but I doubt that happens very often--whether intended or not, most of us will be straying from strict mechanical counting. But, imo, one should be capable of playing to the metronome first and then loosening up the count after that skill has been gained.

        Has no one been involved with note pushing and pulling????

          Killomiter I haven't ever heard of those particular terms. I think I prefer him to say eg. faster or slower hehe

          But I think there are various choices - such as initial tempo. And then can speed up the playing, and then go back to initial. Or can slow down the playing, and go back to initial. Or even speed up above initial tempo and then slow down to below initial tempo, and then finally go back to initial tempo. Or slow down to below initial tempo, and then speed up to above initial tempo, and then slow back down to initial tempo. These various cases ... and even other ones ... such as at the end of a bit of music - a slow down to below initial tempo, or speed up above initial tempo - for some sorts of music That's what I was 'trying' to say here.

          LINK

          And --- also -- good comment you made Killometer! About 'push/pull'. At the moment, the only thing I found online are words like ' pushing and pulling tempo' - associated with rubato. But still looking for their definition of push and pull -- as in exactly what he/they mean by pushing and pulling. And where they start talking about rubato - they then somehow also begin to use the nature sort of words like ebb and flow heheh. It's possible they're just trying to say something like push ahead/forward on the hand-mechanism/device to increase speed, and pull back on a hand-mechanism/device to reduce speed -- or something.

              Forgot to mention ... having the music played as close to fixed tempo as possible ... all of the time -- is also an option. Teachers can say that is a consideration ..... but then they can also show other options or possibilities. And then use where relevant.

              SouthPark Thank you for responding.
              Pushing is a term mostly to do with rhythm and voice. Examples include dare I say it ... F Sinatra - my way. Where the vocals are pushed forwards, it became one of his signatures. Another the often where the rhythm section or one of the instrument leads the beat or follows, Often it is the bass that leads the beat or say the drums delay, much much finer than the slight swing.
              All these things can and are replicated with the piano, whether as part of a band or mostly as soloing. It is too much like AI (God forbid) to follow the patterns directly all of the time, it is where the personal character of each of us can and should be explored. We are live humans and it is the expression that can never be replaced in my mind. You remark about slowing and speeding is relevant too but is not really what pushing and pulling is about; it is a dance around the structure to develop interesting juxtapositions. I will endeavour to find some noteworthy pieces and post here. I realise that this area is for the very advanced but. Often many people are too zealous over time on the beat and the percussive nature of the piano could and should be used to enhance dynamics. Will come back .... Regards Andy

                Here is a solo for you from ne of the best exponents of pushing and pulling around the bass. Tal ... no one better https://fb.watch/tqa9EvC01S/

                This is very similar to rubato - where by definition we rob time without interfering with the cadence. But I am not sure the physical term Rubato.

                  This one is tight as the ducks bum but if you can hear Tal pushing here and occasssionally the drummer leading into the beat - Enjoy ....

                  Here towards the end where she goes four square with the drummer

                    Here is an example of a solid groove, funk , here the Nord playing ahead of the grove to add emphasis and colour.

                      Killomiter Here is a solo for you from one of the best exponents of pushing and pulling around the bass. Tal ... no one better https://fb.watch/tqa9EvC01S/

                      Awesome music - thanks for posting that one! Excellent exponent! That does sound excellent. Flowing and very natural.

                      Killomiter Here is an example of a solid groove, funk , here the Nord playing ahead of the grove to add emphasis and colour.

                      That's also awesome Andy. Great example - and they are excellent.

                      Killomiter This one is tight as the ducks bum but if you can hear Tal pushing here and occasssionally the drummer leading into the beat - Enjoy ....

                      LINK Youtube

                      I had been following davie504, and didn't know about Tal before. She's amazing. Thanks for providing the excellent examples and explaining as well Andy. And playing the music with Herbie Hancock ... indeed very special.

                            iternabe
                            Thank you for that excellent video - an excellent reminder of the importance of counting out loud. I'm lazy and generally don't bother, but from now on I'll make an effort to do so!

                            I was extremely interested to hear how he counts triplets - 1,o,let - as somehow I'd never come across this, and it is fantastic advice.

                            Also, thanks for your list of questions. Answer to all of them is yes - except that I can't sing for toffee...

                              Killomiter
                              The notion that the net balance of the "ebb and flow" should be zero is an interesting reminder that fluctuations go in both directions: both faster and slower.
                              But in that case, as a linguist (and Italy-lover), it strongly irks me to call the practice "rubato". What is stolen is seldom returned! Call it "prestato". Or even better "concordato"! (Or answer rubato with "intensificato")

                              I always like being reminded of Chopin's alleged insistence on a rock solid LH accompaniment: it goes in the same sense as my desire for structure underlying fluidity, architecture to avoid sloppiness.

                              I absolutely loved all the examples you posted. And they reassured me that I might, one day, be able to play with other musicians.

                                  SouthPark
                                  Alongside Killomiter's excellent examples, you've convinced me (despite saying that you prefer to use other terms!): "pushing" and "pulling" is a great way to think of it.

                                    I kind of remember a "class" by Dick Hyman where he was demonstrating some of the things that happened with the development of jazz through history. And I remember of him demonstrating keeping a rock solid time with the left hand (probably stride piano) while changing the timing of the right hand, both slower, falling behind the beat, and faster, jumping ahead of the beat. Ain't gonna lie, my brain hurts when I try to figure out what Dick Hyman is doing. And his hands move so fast my eyes can't keep up. But... he is an incredible player with astounding accuracy and timing.

                                    iternabe Graham Fitch mentioned counting out loud. I came across another video on the same topic and the teacher demonstrated counting out loud while still being able to play musically. After trying it myself, I am convinced this can bring a lot of clarity to understanding and following the rhythm during tricky passages.

                                    I watched some of this video and I think it'll be very helpful as I approach a very difficult piece in terms of rhythm. Triplets against quadruplets but some notes are rests, so I have to be very precise. I do count out loud (very loudly!) when I'm dealing with difficult rhythms but but this video really clarified to me that counting out loud is an extremely beneficial learning tool!

                                    I'm not a fan of playing with metronome until the notes are pretty solid (and mostly as a sanity check to make sure I'm not unintentionally changing tempi in different sections) but I think this video really explains why counting aloud forces you to internalize the beat.

                                      I'm not really a big fan of "counting outloud". LOL!! Seriously, I have listened to some play and do some radical variations in their tempo while doing those same radical variations with their counting. At least the metronome doesn't lie to us. 😉

                                      Not saying counting outloud or using a metronome aren't useful, I think both have their place. Mostly, I think they help us to compartmentalize the music so that we know what it's supposed to sound like. And then... we can make it our own, which may or may not follow a metronome well. Useful servants. Tyranical masters.

                                        Bellyman I'm not really a big fan of "counting outloud". LOL!! Seriously, I have listened to some play and do some radical variations in their tempo while doing those same radical variations with their counting. At least the metronome doesn't lie to us. 😉

                                        Oh yes, I went back to the first post and if the problem is internalizing the pulse, using a metronome will help for sure! If the problem is accurate rhythms within a bar, that's when counting out loud is very useful.

                                        I'm sure if my pulse was off that I'd just adjust my counting to it 😜

                                          Monviso The notion that the net balance of the "ebb and flow" should be zero is an interesting reminder that fluctuations go in both directions: both faster and slower.

                                          People say this but I would say reality is much more complicated. There are places where you just accelerate, and places where you just slow down. I think the only real way, unfortunately, is to listen and accurately imitate. It's like an entire rhythmic language unto itself. And you can not reduce a language to a small set of logical rules.

                                          I basically never use the metronome. My teachers also have not recommended that I use it, asking me to develop my internal sense of pulse instead. To this I credit developing a better, more fluid and "real" sense of rhythm. But it might not be for everyone. It is really part of the current zeitgeist but when I look at books and recordings of the old masters especially, I seldom see the use of the metronome so advocated.

                                          But you need to develop a sense of rhythm. I can play in time with a metronome if I wanted to, and that is important.