Pantonality Maybe I should have been a bit clearer. When I said I mean a professional VI, I was talking about a VI that really sounds good. Something like Vienna Symphonic Library, offering Fazioli, Bösendorfer, Steinway, Yamaha, Blüthner (but no Kawai).

I did not mean professional in the case that someone earns money with a product or a service. For instance, a plumber does a repair in your home and wants $300. He offers you a discount of $50 if you are willing to clean up the water puddles that happened while the job (because he is short on time and must go to next customer quickly).
After you were cleaning up, you figured out, it does not get dry - there is water still a water-leakage somewhere...
Was the plumber a pro like professional? Obviously yes, because he is making a living of it. But was his work good?

Honestly, if I compare the sample video of the "Premier Sound factory" with the Kawai of Stu's video, the Premier Sound factory isn't worth its money.

Stu is playing:
Steinway D (Vienna Symphonic Libraries)
Yamaha CFX (Vienna Symphonic Libraries)
Kawai SK EK (Novus 5 internal sound, because he didn't get a good PC/MAC VI - my guess)

I mean, in Stu's video, all three pianos sound very good and also kind of similar. Non-harsh - they all were natural and pleasant. Even with headphones.
The "Premier Sound factory" on the other side is just overtones. Or did he play pedaled or half-pedaled all the time? And the 2nd half of the video is just a few jazzy dissonant short sounds with a very loud drum set overtoning everything. I guess there is a reason they included the drummer in the sample.

About this text with 127 MIDI velocity. Well, I am almost 50 years old and have a sense if one is telling marketing BS. On top of that, I am a software developer and can confirm this text does not make that much sense. Think about it, either the solution is simple and bulletproof like a no-brainer, then why didn't all the other VST producers do the same solution before? Or it is very error-prone, and they reduced the audible outcome to a minimum as if it is not implemented at all. Or - they are offering a "switch-off button" - maybe the most important button of all.
Seriously: They are advertising this feature in a way as they invented the wheel while the competition uses square tires. If it was really that outstanding good, it would be a game changer. If that was true, no-one would be talking about VSL, Garritan, Pianoteq or Ravenscroft anymore.

@Pantonality I hope you are not involved in the PSF company (earning money with it). If so, tell me and I delete my post ASAP.

      WieWaldi I am not involved in any way with Premier Sound Factory. I asked them about the extended velocity feature. It uses the after touch signal to bring in the additional velocity layers within a matter of about 20 milliseconds, but I didn't ask if the feature was polyphonic. 20 milliseconds is plenty fast given the complexity of a piano's sound envelope. My guess as to why this wasn't done earlier is the requirement for Kontakt 6. I don't honestly know but suspect the capability was added in that product release. I have Kontakt 6 but none of the libraries I own requires it. Regarding the demos I would suggest going to the VI-Control thread I referenced above because a number of folks there bought the library and produced recordings that exceed what the company itself was capable of. I don't know the reason why that would be, it just is. Whether the library is worth the price they're asking I don't know, as I said above I'm waiting for a Black Friday or other sale because I don't really need another piano library. I respect Kawai and have played and greatly enjoyed some Shigerus (SK7 being the biggest) but not a SK-EX.

          Pantonality Thanks for the kind answer.
          I am not sure if a digital piano sends a touch or am aftertouch signal via MIDI. I know rough stuff about MIDI, but don't have the complete spec (I am not willing to dig through) in my head. And the fact there is a signal defined does not mean a digital piano uses it. Maybe other instruments.
          I tried the organ/harpsichord on mine. And if I press the key as slow as possible, the sound comes exactly when the escapement happens. I don't know if the escapement nibble has a sensor, but I doubt it.
          My guess is the 3 sensors are good for capturing the velocity of the hammer mechanic, and one of those sensors happens to check the hammer before or at the escapement nibble. In this case the other sensors don't need to detect a velocity, it is enough that the piano knows sensor#1 was passed. And the the organ/harpsi sounds happen to play.

          tl;dr: I don't believe my piano has a pressure sensor for each key. It is not necessary. I only read of 2-sensor and 3-sensor action. 3 sensors give better resolution if the key wasn't released completely before re-hammering. If there would be a pressure sensor I am quite confident the marketing departments would write about it and the number would be higher than 2 or 3.

          Anyway, I wish you get a good deal at Black Friday and if you really buy it, I wish you will be very happy with it and don't regret the purchase.

              WieWaldi I am not sure if a digital piano sends a touch or am aftertouch signal via MIDI.

              The vast, vast, majority of digital pianos have no such feature. In fact, most synths, which is where you'll find aftertouch implemented, also don't have it. The maker's description is also pretty curious, they say it's intended to address cases where a DP sends a note-on velocity of 127. But 1) many DPs don't really reach 127, at least not easily, and many of the ones that do can adjust the MIDI curve via a "velocity curve" or "touch curve" setting. Also, a lot of dedicated controllers (again mostly without aftertouch) allow you to set a velocity curve manually. I'm curious to know whether this is really a helpful feature, or just something the dev implemented because they could (why not)?

              The main categories of DPs that do send a MIDI aftertouch are the Yamaha AvantGrands and silent/player pianos. It's part of their extended XP MIDI spec, where I believe it's not used for actual "MIDI/synth aftertouch" but rather to deliver real-time key position tracking for "smooth release", key re-striking, and silent-strike resonance triggering.

              I guess for those relatively few pianists using Montage, Fantom and Kronos axes with this VST, it's something they can use 🙂

                  Gombessa The StudioLogic Numa X GT also does channel aftertouch, IIRC. I would love to see a premium hammer action controller with polyphonic aftertouch, but I'm not holding my breath. 🙂

                      Mindbullets Ok, not premium, but the Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk3 meets those requirements.
                      I play exclusively with VSTs these days, and am thinking of trying this to replace my ageing (2007) Kawai MP5, which is still going strong even with every day playing.

                          Who wants to wait 20 milliseconds for the VST to choose a velocity?

                            Rob Ok, not premium, but the Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk3 meets those requirements.

                            I know, it's so close! If they do this with a premium action I might consider ditching my CP88.

                            johnstaf Who wants to wait 20 milliseconds for the VST to choose a velocity?

                            Good question. I wondered if it would start immediately with the 127 velocity sample and crossfade to the AT samples after 20 ms, but if it's a global delay before initial sample playback, that would be a no-go for me. Too bad there's no trial available.

                                  Mindbullets Good question. I wondered if it would start immediately with the 127 velocity sample and crossfade to the AT samples after 20 ms

                                  This is how I read it too:

                                  This is done by detecting an overflow of velocity intensities of 127 by aftertouch (within 20 msec) and replaces the original 127 velocity sound with an extremely natural “limit-breaking sound” which is played according to the overflow degree. This product is equipped with three additional limit-breaking velocity layers after exceeding 127.

                                  It starts with the 127 max velocity, and then swaps it out real-time after 20ms with a 128, 129 or 130 velocity sample.

                                  It's another thing that kind of feels like a kludge. Will it work? Dunno, maybe. It would be easy to test with a MIDI script - strike a note at velocity 50, have it play the 50 velocity as well as a muted strike at velocity 60-70, and then 20ms later mute the velocity-50 strike and mix in the velocity-60 one. Can you notice a difference? Is it unnatural to have the extra volume/bloom come in a fraction of a second later? I have no idea. But I do recall enough people complaining about the sample volume increasing on the old AvantGrands when the sustain pedal is pressed, so I suspect that at least some people may notice the effect.

                                  And not to dogpile, but typically the highest velocity of 127 is supposed to be a crashing, unmusical fivetissimo anyways; one that a pianist would not normally play except for the absolute most strident, violent strikes. So if you have a velocity 127 sample, and need 3 additional velocities above that, you might as well have made the 127 a velocity-120 strike instead, and placed the additional three velocities at 123, 125, 127. 😖

                                      Gombessa It starts with the 127 max velocity, and then swaps it out real-time after 20ms with a 128, 129 or 130 velocity sample.

                                      It's another thing that kind of feels like a kludge. Will it work?

                                      The attack phase is very important in the perception of timbre. I think something like Pianoteq could be very good if they used sample attacks.

                                      Gombessa And not to dogpile, but typically the highest velocity of 127 is supposed to be a crashing, unmusical fivetissimo anyways; one that a pianist would not normally play except for the absolute most strident, violent strikes. So if you have a velocity 127 sample, and need 3 additional velocities above that, you might as well have made the 127 a velocity-120 strike instead, and placed the additional three velocities at 123, 125, 127.

                                      Definitely. On my FP90 it's quite difficult to reach 127, just like it's difficult to max out an acoustic. I like the way VSL samples the fffff levels.

                                            johnstaf I think something like Pianoteq could be very good if they used sample attacks.

                                            Absolutely, hearkening back to Roland's old SuperNatural Piano - sampled attack, modeled decay/resonance.

                                            Come to think of it, I think some people have done exactly that - use a sampled piano for the initial attack, and blend in PTQ for the resonance/decay.

                                              Gombessa It starts with the 127 max velocity, and then swaps it out real-time after 20ms with a 128, 129 or 130 velocity sample.

                                              It's another thing that kind of feels like a kludge. Will it work? Dunno, maybe. It would be easy to test with a MIDI script - strike a note at velocity 50, have it play the 50 velocity as well as a muted strike at velocity 60-70, and then 20ms later mute the velocity-50 strike and mix in the velocity-60 one. Can you notice a difference? Is it unnatural to have the extra volume/bloom come in a fraction of a second later? I have no idea. But I do recall enough people complaining about the sample volume increasing on the old AvantGrands when the sustain pedal is pressed, so I suspect that at least some people may notice the effect.

                                              And not to dogpile, but typically the highest velocity of 127 is supposed to be a crashing, unmusical fivetissimo anyways; one that a pianist would not normally play except for the absolute most strident, violent strikes. So if you have a velocity 127 sample, and need 3 additional velocities above that, you might as well have made the 127 a velocity-120 strike instead, and placed the additional three velocities at 123, 125, 127. 😖

                                              I came for the explanation, but stayed for "fivetissimo". 😂

                                              This is very interesting.

                                              Would we notice the volume increase after 20 ms? Some people say they can't hear delays under a second, but others can. I'm in the latter camp. And for others who can hear those delays, would it, indeed, sound like that unnatural blooming people complained about with the Avantgrands? Because that wouldn't be ideal.

                                              And with those super violent loud strikes, the sound doesn't really get louder or more violent after the initial strike - it blooms and changes timbre slightly, but not in a way that would require a sound louder or more strident than the initial sound. It's the initial crash that's somewhat unnatural - everything after that is just the blooming of sound - and that part sounds rather natural. So, I'm not fully understanding the logic.

                                              I think the developer should've really given an example of what this means. I find a lot of developers are doing this very impressive technical jargon lately, that doesn't really translate sensibly when taken as stated, and sometimes is just a flashy restatement of a very typical/common feature.

                                              I also wonder if saving these super high velocities for only when you've pressed 127 with a strong aftertouch ...is why their instrument has been accused of having a limited high dynamic range that seems to top out at just forte. And that may be true, if they're saving all the highest velocities for this particular circumstance.

                                              Sure, you don't want your fff samples kicking in at 100...BUT, conversely, you also don't want your ff samples to only kick in after 127 AND a requisite of aftertouch.

                                              johnstaf Definitely. On my FP90 it's quite difficult to reach 127, just like it's difficult to max out an acoustic. I like the way VSL samples the fffff levels.

                                              Agreed. I've owned at least five different DPs since 2020, and not one of them let me get to 127 with ease. Even when I felt I was about to put my hand through the keybed, I was still barely at 120. So, who are these people whose instruments just reach 127 with ease, lol.

                                              Also, I agree that VSL samples fff/ffff very well. While, with every other VST I've used, I have to alter the velocity curve to make it easier to reach 127 so I can get the highest, most strident velocities, with VSL, I always kept 127 as the highest velocity, because I never really needed to go that high. Their highest velocities, were, in fact, just like karate-chopping the piano - something you would never do in normal practice and never use. Where VSL sometimes drops the ball on their p-ppp range, they can never be accused of skimping on the f-ffff range.

                                                  After reading through this thread, I think this new feature can only be tuned to a very limited set of keyboard controllers. That's a very narrow group, so why bother? It's an interesting proposition, but even if all controllers had polyphonic aftertouch, they'd be calibrated differently anyway, and there would be no consistency in implementing this feature.

                                                  We ALREADY have problems that need personal fine tuning via custom velocity curves - adding this feature worsens that problem IMHO

                                                  Yep - as KFB and company did some tests --- on one selected keyboard, finding it had relatively significant 'velocity' offsets over various different sections of the keyboard -- in bands (groups) of notes.

                                                  Regardless of whether in note groups/bands, or significant offsets among neighbouring notes, it may be something for some people to think about, especially the ones that want their accurate/reliable controllable velocity.

                                                  That gets into areas of calibration - and also areas of no-means for calibration (for each and every key), regardless of cost/time/etc. This also brings up the ceiling value of seven bit ..... the '127' (with 'zero' as the first level), as in keeping clear of that 'saturation' level if there is significant uncertainty in the actual velocity from a keyboard.

                                                  But - on the other hand, if somebody wants to customise to whatever they want - for each note - then that's ok --- that's if they have a way to customise - which generally requires somebody to get or build their own D.I.Y. keyboard, so that they can have full access and control for customisation.

                                                  But also considering just how 'good' the D.I.Y. keyboard design and performance is ..... because a lot of people try to roll-their-own, and claim good reliable performance, but often has various issues that they probably prefer to not mention. Although it's good to have people having a go, and that will be good if one's design really is a good one.

                                                  I'm interested to later (in the future) delve into the induction (magnetic induction) types of D.I.Y. I initially was thinking of optical approach. But changing my mind now. Turning attention toward the induction side.

                                                  I remembered a bit from my other thread about the above velocity 127 and thought I would paste it in here. This was a response from the producer of the library, named Ichiro, at Premier Sound Factory. Any latency in the Velocity Plus feature is discussed a bit, his contention is that the crossfade to the higher velocity layers is complete before the envelope reaches its peak. Please refer back to the VI-Control thread for more responses from this user.

                                                  Steve

                                                  Hello,

                                                  My name is Ichiro and I recorded and produced KAWAI Legend. I appreciate your interest. I have over 20 years of career as a sound engineer, but classic is not my field. Therefore, I am interested in your opinions. I would like to actively update what I can respond to from what you feel necessary and want to correct.

                                                  We were fortunate to have a large recording camp for 10 days with KAWAI's tuner and the craftsmen who make SK-EX. When recording, we tested several studios in the Kanto region of Japan and selected the studio with the best sound as much as possible. Our team does not like super dry, nor do we have a taste for hard or soft sounds. We only hope to record SK-EX as it is as much as possible. We do not have a specific genre or purpose. And the result is the sound of KAWAI Legend. As a result, I think various people will have various impressions, and it may indeed be a bit different from the sound of a general piano library. Anyway, we enjoy it as the sound of a piano played in international competitions heard up close.

                                                  When recording KAWAI Legend, We used multiple pairs of microphones, but only adopted the one pair we felt was best. Choosing a microphone is fun, but since we use 96kHz 24bit RAW data as it is, It already has 30GB of data and gave up adding microphones. I am negative about mixing the sound of multiple microphones for a single piano, from the concern of blurring the phase, in usual recording and sound libraries.

                                                  Do you need EQ on the library screen? While excellent EQs are overflowing in the market, I personally am not very interested in using the built-in EQ in Kontakt, but I think it is not difficult to equip if there are many needs. Normally, I rarely insert a compressor into a concert piano, but do you also need a compressor?

                                                  With Velocity Plus, there is no latency. The crossfade completes before reaching the top of the attack, so at least I can't find discomfort in my ears. If a problem occurs in a specific situation, please send me the data and I will verify it.

                                                  The notation of the velocity layer has been corrected to avoid misunderstandings.

                                                  I will answer re-peat.

                                                  I’m not a man who belongs to the school that says that the sound of the notes of a good piano should die near instantly the moment the key is released. Personally, I'm rather the opposite, but as a craftsman, I abandoned my personal liking and faithfully followed the sound of the actual SK-EX. However, I am interested in parameters that can adjust the length of release. It takes some time, but I am considering working on it at the beginning of the year. Thank you for the nice proposal.

                                                  KAWAI Legend is a 96kHz library, but it is realistically possible to additionally equip all sample files in 48kHz or 44.1kHz. But I doubt that enthusiasts will use the 44.1kHz session for their work, so I think 48kHz is better if I add it. I usually use Weiss SARACON for sample rate converter, but I will consider if there are other wishes.

                                                  Also, I liked re-peat's classical demo. If you don't mind, can I introduce the mp3 on our website?

                                                  Thanks again.

                                                  Ichiro
                                                  PREMIER SOUND FACTORY

                                                    Pantonality I see what he's saying, but, still, listening to demos, the decay is unnaturally short and dry. Even when playing absolutely stacatto, notes shouldn't die away like they do on this VST. It's almost like there's just an ON-OFF option for the notes, and that the release samples and overtones are much too quiet or not sufficiently connected. Even playing in a very dry, acoustically treated room, the piano wouldn't sound like this. The notes wouldn't just die away like that, because ultimately the strings are being muted by the damper, which creates a noticeable decay. The strings don't just stop instantly followed by overtone sounds.

                                                    Also, the dynamic range of this instrument seems a bit compressed, when compared to other VSTs.

                                                    I wonder if this has been fixed, since this post seems to suggest the developer is willing to listen.

                                                      6 days later

                                                      Pantonality I am negative about mixing the sound of multiple microphones for a single piano, from the concern of blurring the phase, in usual recording and sound libraries.

                                                      It's good to hear this. It baffles me how some libraries are put together.

                                                        Pantonality Anyway, we enjoy it as the sound of a piano played in international competitions heard up close.

                                                        As Ichiro put it. So do I. I did listen to some demo where the link was posted earlier on. We'll put up the embedded youtube here though.

                                                          5 months later

                                                          Fetivi, between this Kawai and the previous Bosendorfer, these are the reason I took the plunge and bought Pianoteq. I like them both quite a lot. The Bosendorfer is very warm and the Kawai is very clear all the way to the top, which is something most real acoustic pianos fail at quite miserably. There are actually musical tones in that top octave, not just a "clink, clink, clink" kind of sound that sort of resembles a short note but barely recognizable. I tend to play higher up into that register when the sounds are that clear.

                                                          For the soft dreamy stuff, I tend to like the Bosendorfer better. For more present and lively stuff, the Kawai. I'm back and forth. But I'm not sorry I bought Pianoteq.