Unfortunately but not too surprisingly some of the threads here have gotten a bit contentious lately. It would be great if we could manage this so that we retain the friendly vibe of PianoTell.

Based on what I've seen over at PianoClack, I think it's easy in Flarum to move posts between threads. Similar to how I believe PianoClack is moderated, I was thinking of a moderation strategy of moving the contentious discussions into new threads inside a new "Debates" forum. People who want to spend their energy arguing with people on the intenet can indulge themselves in the "Debates" forum, while those who would rather not can hang out in the other forums.

Having a moderator move some posts into the "Debates" forum can serve as hint to the posters that their posts are out of line for the non-Debates forums without banning anybody or deleting anyone's posts (unless the posts are really egregious; hopefully that won't happen!).

What do you think?

    I love it!! I must say I haven't noticed anything just yet. This could either mean that I haven't visited those threads, or that I'm the eye of the hurricane (I hope not!). I'm very happy with this forum so far. So I'm all for keeping the friendly vibe that we started with. Any time I have a peek elsewhere, I realize more and more how toxic a place can become without even realizing it until after the fact.

      My initial hunch is, that it could be a good idea in principle, though I wonder how it would ultimately pan out.

      Perhaps a section called “sidebar?” Or, I think it’s been suggested before, if replies/subreplies can be within a collapsible arrow?

      Honestly, I sometimes find the heated discussions entertaining, if anything. I just get discouraged when it’s in the midst of the main forum, and can derail, or distract.

      Alternatively, before someone posts something, maybe there can be a prompt/reminder that any and all posts need to adhere to the purpose of PT, which is to foster community. And if their post does not reflect that intent, that it can be deleted at anytime. My definition of that is, if a post comes across as trying to prove a point; write in a “me vs. you” tone; speculates another person’s intelligence; etc. I’m actually not heavily offended by it (we’re all human), but it’s more that it’s distracting and derails the conversation 🙂

      Ultimately, the fact that you bring this up in this thread though, is encouraging to me, and suggests the majority of PT users have a unified goal in mind, which is to keep things civil and community-oriented. Even if there’s subtle disagreements on what that precisely means, it’s nonetheless a positive thing to strive for it.

        HeartKeys the majority of PT users have a unified goal in mind, which is to keep things civil and community-oriented

        Right on! 🙂

        But I don't actually agree with the suggestion to delete posts or provide a prompt/reminder. I once participated in a forum where "controversial" posts were deleted. That led to a lot of issues, because whenever a new spat arose, the person with the deleted posts could claim complete innocence ("when was I ever out of line?") and the ones who responded to the controversial posts looked like idiots because there was nothing to show what made them angry in the first place.

        Personally, I'm also vehemently against heavy handed moderating or prompts to tell me how to post as if I were some toddler needing instructions. So actually I'm pleased to see the way the current moderators have handled it here (and there, wherever there is, haha).

        Is it possible to lock threads? Usually that takes the heat away, because usually no one will start a NEW topic to continue the fight. So that'll be the end of that. I'm a firm believer in the one two three rule of discipline.

        One - a moderator could ask the arguing parties to please play nice with each other.
        Two - if that doesn't help, the moderator could mention that continuing the argument would mean a locked thread.
        Three - if it still continues, the thread is locked.

        Fair?

            Yup. I posted in another thread recently that if PT ends up being the same people from other forums engaging in the same arguments, I'm unlikely to spend much time here, in much the same way that I stopped post at some other places ... I'm all for rigorous debate, but some of it turns into nastiness, condescension, etc., and I really don't need more of that in my (virtual) life.

            Enthusiastic but mediocre amateur.

            Sophia I love it!! I must say I haven't noticed anything just yet. This could either mean that I haven't visited those threads, or that I'm the eye of the hurricane (I hope not!).

            It could also be the case that I'm over reacting to the debates that have started cropping up. To me they stand out in stark contrast to the rest of what's going on here.

            @HeartKeys I sometimes find the debates entertaining as well, and get sucked into reading them in spite of myself. Afterward I typically find myself wishing that I had just ignored the posts instead though.

                rogerch You're not alone, I've noticed it too ...

                Enthusiastic but mediocre amateur.

                  These are all options. I'm heads down on the hosting right now as my top priority... hopefully PT doesn't implode in the meantime, making it all pointless. 😃

                  • Ignore needs to be investigated in case it's not working well.
                  • Moving may be an option as well, but getting some reports would help with the decision here. The move functionality on PT doesn't work as well as the one on PC and I need to investigate why that is and fix it up before we use it too much.

                  Personally, I was wondering whether community moderation would work i.e. folks can downvote particular comments, 5 downvotes (for example) would make those comments hidden by default or a candidate for moving.

                  --
                  Beach L168, Wish, baCh, WOW Petrof, Fake Steinway, VS
                  TIME

                    navindra Right now, my preference is just to work on the board culture, making sure it's clear that we're only interested in friendly, respectful discussion. My impression so far is that the vast majority of regular posters here fall into that category. I'm really digging the general vibe here, especially from folks who may have been a bit more shy to post in other places (and quite understandably) but seem to be much more outgoing here.

                    For my part, I intend to encourage that with positive reinforcement for posts / posters that I find valuable, and just plain ignoring threads that devolve into the usual internet forum nastiness ... 🙂

                    Enthusiastic but mediocre amateur.

                      navindra Personally, I was wondering whether community moderation would work i.e. folks can downvote particular comments, 5 downvotes (for example) would make those comments hidden by default or a candidate for moving.

                      I agree with the concept of downvoting, but not sure what the consequence should be...

                        Can I be honest about this? To me downvoting looks a bit like passive aggression.
                        It it okay to disagree with someone, or is that not allowed here? ( Edit: That's a real question, for me it's starting to be a bit confusing. Maybe it's an idea to write down exactly what is allowed and what is expected from members. I think my opinion might be a bit too strong sometimes for this forum and I think that yesterday I could have recieved some down votes in that topic about digital pianos if the option was already there).

                          Josephine I see it more as a 'dislike'. I think it could work if used properly. But I understand that if it's misused then it could lead to all unpopular opinions to be quashed, perhaps unfairly. Maybe the flagging system is better then, because you can't flag someone just because you disagree with them.

                              Rubens

                              Oh, I'm sorry, I edited my post while you posted a reply.

                              That's what I'm afraid of indeed, that it's used for unpopular opinions. But maybe when I have another opinion I should just stop reading the thread instead of writing something.

                                Josephine I fully support disagreeing opinions. I also support a variety of expression and moods. Diversity is natural and important. Have at it!

                                I've personally always enjoyed your writings, Josephine. I can't imagine how your opinions would cross a line. You are clearly very passionate about pianos and you have some serious skills!

                                For me, where it becomes more troublesome is personal attacks, insults, deliberate+extended trolling, and that sort of thing. Happy for folks to disagree with me on this though. 🙂

                                --
                                Beach L168, Wish, baCh, WOW Petrof, Fake Steinway, VS
                                TIME

                                  Josephine Oh gotcha! Personally, I think you're amazing and I'm in awe at what you've accomplished on your own. 🙂

                                  I understand your feedback now. We won't implement this random idea as it's not even a readily available solution that I know of. We'll simply evolve and course correct as needed. 🙂

                                  --
                                  Beach L168, Wish, baCh, WOW Petrof, Fake Steinway, VS
                                  TIME

                                    I am all for reasoned debate, even argument and disagreement, so long as it remains civil, and does not descend into personal insults or veiled threats.
                                    We are all adults, and as such, should be capable of self-moderation at all times. Sometimes, it is better to step away from an argument, just as in real life.
                                    Maybe a warning to those overstepping the line, followed by a time out for repeated offences, would send a message to the offender, that perhaps this place is not the best fit for them unless they moderate their behaviour here?

                                    Sophia Is it possible to lock threads? Usually that takes the heat away, because usually no one will start a NEW topic to continue the fight. So that'll be the end of that. I'm a firm believer in the one two three rule of discipline.

                                    One - a moderator could ask the arguing parties to please play nice with each other.
                                    Two - if that doesn't help, the moderator could mention that continuing the argument would mean a locked thread.
                                    Three - if it still continues, the thread is locked.

                                    Yes, threads can be locked and yes, what you wrote is how we often handled such situations on PW.

                                    Please be aware though that there isn't a one size fits all solution. Sometimes a public warning is a good way to let people know the mods are watching and to keep it nice, other times private warnings need to be sent to avoid putting more fuel in the fire, and sometimes we had to ban people and remove their posts. The approach and the strength of the moderation depends on the situation and the people involved. Mods have to know their community, the history of the posters involved, and have to be objective and sensitive.

                                    I think we already have a great mod team of people who care about the community. I don't know if there was any announcement but currently there is @navindra, @ShiroKuro, @rsl12, and myself. We are part of this community and very much wish it to remain vibrant without the toxicity of of internet discussions in general. Therefore, I think the best thing you can do if you think any post is crossing the line is to simply flag it. We will see your comment, discuss it amongst ourselves, and take appropriate action. Perhaps you might not like that this is going on behind closed doors but please understand that making a public trial of someone is a really bad idea if you want forums to remain a healthy place.

                                        rogerch Similar to how I believe PianoClack is moderated, I was thinking of a moderation strategy of moving the contentious discussions into new threads inside a new "Debates" forum. People who want to spend their energy arguing with people on the intenet can indulge themselves in the "Debates" forum, while those who would rather not can hang out in the other forums.

                                        I don't like this idea. To me debates are a normal part of a discussion. There are points on which people disagree and I think it's fine as long as the debate remains civilized and doesn't go too far on an off-topic tangent. If that happens I'm OK stepping in and saying something like "we got your point, now can we go back to talking about pianos".

                                          Josephine Can I be honest about this? To me downvoting looks a bit like passive aggression.

                                          I agree. I think downvoting is often just a personal attack. I also wouldn't be happy with downvoted posts that just disappear.

                                          Often a thread goes off the rails when just a couple of people get more interested in attacking each other personally than adding something useful to the discussion. I don't want to attack these people by downvoting their posts, but I would like a moderator to step in and remind them to calm down and be polite. I'm fine with the approach that BartK just described.

                                              Okay. This thread is getting toxic. @navindra please delete the posts above from Navindra!

                                              Kidding of course. As far as reading above dialogue, I do like the idea of empowering the users to reaffirm the intended culture of PT. If most of us are overall aligned on what “respectful” and “courteous” are, then calling people out, in a constructive and respectful manner could work well. Key word “could.”

                                              That’d mean that we also should be cognizant of how we’d come across as well. The following to me sounds okay: “it appears we’re deviating from the topic” “let’s please refrain from characterizing the other person” basically the tone is more calm and pragmatic.

                                              I’d be against: “okay this is the third time, HeartKeys, where you did this. Clearly you’re just trying to fan the flames.” “Get off your high horse. You think you know it all, but it’s really making me want to ignore this thread.” These sorts of statements come across reactive, and will only incite the issue, and will get the individual to respond with defensiveness, and respond emotionally as well. And it then becomes that vicious cycle of getting the last word for eternity 🙂