Piano

SouthPark But getting back to pianos

I'll be really really honest here... I'm finding all this nitpicking about "what is a piano" extremely boring. And pointless. And futile. Kinda like this:

By now I think everyone has given their opinion on what they consider a real piano and what's not. Kinda like the argument at exactly which point Data becomes a real human... some will say he always was, others will say he never will be. Yet no one ever questioned Data's usefulness to do what he was designed for.

So if the object is to get back to pianos, I like to spend my time on a more useful discussion, such as finding the perfect little non-piano which we have been discussing these past few posts... I still want that cat piano... I'm sure they'll be back in stock someday right?

I think we all will agree that you made your point. Again. And again. Can we also agree to completely drop it now? I have a feeling that otherwise this thread would get locked and I'm way too lazy to start a new one about cute mini versions

I acknowledge your desire to continue indefinitely with the discussion of the essence/definition/meaning of "real piano" in this thread and not go off tangent, nor have a lively discussion on fun topics such as cat pianos or other such deviations. And of course I'm (almost) always nice so I will express my hope that you will get what you wish for The stage is all yours!

Sophia Kinda like the argument at exactly which point Data becomes a real human... some will say he always was, others will say he never will be. Yet no one ever questioned Data's usefulness to do what he was designed for.

That is a very good thought!

Data was never a human. And Data would never be a human. But Data was quite human-like in many ways, and wasn't to be discounted because he never was human. In some ways, people may have argued that he was better than any human ever would be, not being able to incorporate the darker side of humanity into his programming (hate, jealousy, etc). He could do many things humans couldn't. Yet there were still some things humans could do that Data couldn't. Emotion never quite developed. Humor never quite developed. Those situations requiring those would not have been a good fit for Data. But other tasks requiring precision, quick decision making, speed, patience, lack of emotion, yeah, Data was a wonderful candidate for the job.

Unlike some, I have no use for a "cat piano". LOL!! But hey, if that trips your trigger, go for it! There are real acoustic pianos that I have enjoyed thoroughly (a particular 7' Baldwin grand comes to mind) and other acoustic pianos that I have not found nearly as pleasant to play or listen to (a mid-sized Steinway grand comes to mind). There are keyboards that I have (and do) enjoy (my RD-2000 comes to mind) and other keyboards I have not had much use for (a cheap Casio keyboard comes to mind). I'm capable of playing any of them. They all have "keys" and make "piano-like" sounds. I'd very likely refer to any of them as "pianos" knowing full well what an acoustic piano is, mostly as a common term that is often used for any or all of them, accurate or not.

One might consider whether an item is a "facial tissue" or a "Kleenex". There are facial tissues that are not Kleenex but I'm not going to get too excited about someone referring to a tissue of another brand as a Kleenex. It's a common term, whether accurate or not and everybody knows what is being talked about. If it is important to you to differentiate, great, do so. Most people just wanna blow some snot and don't care to use their sleeve.

Sounds good, thank you navrinda. We wouldn't want to take away from serious education and enlightenment by providing some fun now would we (ok sorry, I couldn't help it, below the belt I know, well I did say I'm mostly nice. I can also be a little snarky. Sorryyyy)

SouthPark That is the exact thing. The exact thing. Notice the contradiction? If it doesn't 'matter' to someone, then they wouldn't initially say that it doesn't matter, and then follow up with a 'that said' -- and then begin to add their opinion, such as 'it's a bit nonsensical that .....'. If you know what I mean. This also goes for taushi and some others too - where they write - it doesn't matter. But then they follow-up with details that makes it obvious that it matters to them.

Sorry, I guess I was being imprecise - rather than saying it doesn't matter, I probably should have said it shouldn't matter. I used a VPC-1 for over half a decade as my primary instrument and would happily tell people that I "play piano". Nobody asked me if I owned a "real piano" and I never once thought about whether the VPC-1 should be philosophically classified as a "real" piano. Because at the end of the day, it's a tool to make music. Who cares if it's "real" or not as long as it meets my artistic needs?

But clearly this is a very important topic to you SouthPark, so I'm engaging with the discussion out of respect of the fervor of your opinion. This is, after all, a forum for discussing pianos!

The best analogy I can think of to explain my viewpoint is art. Would you describe this digital image as "real art"?

I certainly would! No one can argue that the image isn't real. Next, what's the medium?

This image was created on a computer (likely with a program like Procreate) so the medium would be classified as "digital media". Although there appear to be brush strokes of maybe an oil-based paint, these are digitally simulated. You might also classify this as a "digital painting" to emphasize that it was made with simulated brush strokes, as opposed to other digital techniques.

So it's real art. But is it a "real" painting? This is really the heart of our discussion. To answer this, let's think about the context for the word "real" and why someone might be asking this question.

Suppose I was the artist, and I had this image on my online portfolio. Someone might ask if this was a "real painting" for several reasons:

• They want to buy it, if it's a physical painting. A potential customer might want to buy a real, physical painting created with oil-based paint on canvas, to hang on a wall and appreciate the three-dimensionality of paint on canvas. In this context, it would be disingenuous, if not fraudulent, to claim that it's a "real" painting if the product is in fact digital media only.
• They want to judge my artistic capabilities. Perhaps someone is interested in commissioning a piece of physical art, and they are curious about my experience with oil-based paint on canvas.

In these contexts, "real" is referring to whether the painting was created with physical media. No one asking this question is attempting to engage in an ontological discussion of whether this piece of art truly exists. They're asking about the medium and whether the image was created via simulated (digital) or real (physical) paint.

I view the use of the word "real" when describing digital vs. acoustic pianos similarly, because much like digital brushstrokes vs. oil on canvas, the sound of a digital piano is a virtual simulation of the sound of an acoustic instrument. If someone hears a recording of a piano piece and asks, "is this a real piano?", they're almost certainly asking if it was recorded on an acoustic instrument.

But again, I don't really think it matters. Although I don't believe the phrase "real piano" applies to a digital keyboard, there's no question that a digital instrument can be used to make real music. And in many cases, you can make better music on a digital piano than an acoustic instrument. So who cares if your digital keyboard is a "real piano" or not, if you're making real music?

Sophia But going back to that dinky little keyboard - I'm really curious why you don't like it, @johnstaf before I waste money on something that's useless.

It has tiny keys that are difficult to play (for me anyway). Dynamics are very difficult to control. I didn't buy it to play like a piano, and never really used the keyboard anyway.

SouthPark So ... when we see this sort of thing, it is then time to mention it. It actually matters from a definitions and communications and educational perspective.

Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "educational" perspective? Are you disappointed with Wikipedia's definition and want it changed? Or by "educational" do you mean educating us on your opinion of how a piano should be defined?

None of us have the ability or authority to change how a word is defined, and this is a topic with inherent ambiguity. Ultimately, I agree with @HeartKeys in the second post of this thread:

HeartKeys A digital piano is a piano if you say it is. And it’s not, if you say it isn’t.

I find postings like this inherently provocative. We seen this over and over, and I'm always amazed at how many take the bait. If a firestarter set someone's doormat alight and the homeowner came out and doused it with a glass of water, the perpetrator would move on to another neighborhood, or back to where they set the last fire. But, if the fire department is called, with all those lights and sirens, and neighbors coming out to see what all the excitement is, well, you can bet more matches will be struck or fuel added to what should have been doused with a glass of water.

Some choose to stoke a synthetic controversy, like sample vs. modeling, or acoustic vs. digital, or whatever, hoping to generate activity or just to create a disturbance. Sometimes, when this kind of thing happens in conversation, people just nod and wait for the subject to change to something more interesting. This was not one of those times.

I also don't get the concept of moving or splitting threads. It's like four guys sitting around a pub table talking about playing in bands. And two start talking about the old vans they had to carry all that equipment. Suddenly, the bartender comes over and tells them to move to another table. Isn't a thread a conversation? Don't conversations drift? For the continuity of the content, the continuity of the conversation is altered?

SouthPark The second part ... yes ... from an educational perspective. If you or anyone didn't know it before ... then you do know it now.

Yes, I believe we do.