Sophia This whole discussion reminds me of Data.

TNG was one of my favorites. 🙂 Loved the character of Data.

    Sophia This whole discussion reminds me of Data. Quote from The Measure of a Man:

    You are endowing Data a digital piano with human real characteristics because it looks human like a piano, but it is not. If if it were a box on wheels, I would not be facing this opposition. (...)
    Data A digital piano is an extraordinary piece of engineering but it is a machine not a real piano.

    Interesting scenario. Pianos came from a human idea/concept of needing/wanting to find a solution - even one solution to get piano forte and (at that time - the 'sound' of struck string) to realise an instrument with a harpsichord keys layout. From that idea eventually came more than one solution for achieving that idea/goal, which is the reason why we have a few different types/kinds of piano today.

    Data is a machine that got invented by a human. But humans didn't invent themselves - at least as far as we know. Although, humans are machines too - biomech machines. And if Data became adequately more evolved/advanced, then there is the real possibility of Data's upgrade for synthesising particular components or elements being able to function to 'reproduce' (in one sort of 'fuzzy' way) with humans (eg. from the replicator technology and transporter technology and accumulated knowledge in the sciences etc). Leading to some sort(s) of humans, having characteristics that we wouldn't foresee right now, as we just can't foresee it now.

    But getting back to pianos. It is now known that the initial form factors for piano are grand and upright. But these days, there is grand, upright and compact/portable/slab, and even deconstructed form (eg. VST, PTeq etc).

    And under types of pianos - we now have digital, acoustic, hybrid, electric etc. I will put an emphasis on 'etc' because there are those systems such as acoustic pianos outfitted with sensors so that they can be in one 'mode' or the other - ie, acoustic piano mode, or digital piano mode. And then there are the 'deconstructed' systems - such as VST plus keyboard.

    Sophia I'd say that kinda covers all 😃

    That's almost correct (in my opinion). It will correctly be 'a musical instrument generally with a row of back and white keys that are pressed with fingers to play notes'. Omitted the 'large', because it doesn't have to be 'large', where large is relative. There do exist relatively small pianos, particularly of the digital type.

    Also, even though in some posts I did mention playing with fingers, there are very nice cases we have seen online with at least one person playing a piano with her toes, due to impairment since she was a baby. And the music she played/plays was/is very nice indeed.

    shawarma_bees If you own a digital piano at home and can use it to play piano music, then we have common musical ground. Who cares if it's a "real" piano or not? If you enjoy it and can make music, then do so.

    With that said, I think it's a bit nonsensical to claim that a digital keyboard is a "real piano". Not even Pianoteq claims this. In fact, their website describes it as a "virtual instrument":

    That is the exact thing. The exact thing. Notice the contradiction? If it doesn't 'matter' to someone, then they wouldn't initially say that it doesn't matter, and then follow up with a 'that said' -- and then begin to add their opinion, such as 'it's a bit nonsensical that .....'. If you know what I mean. This also goes for taushi and some others too - where they write - it doesn't matter. But then they follow-up with details that makes it obvious that it matters to them.

    This thread is about piano. And a piano can generally - note generally - be defined as an instrument with harpsichord keyboard layout, that is polyphonic, and produces sounds when we push the keys, and one characteristic feature of it is piano forte -- the capability of adequate soft loud control of the sounds/pitches. And the sounds are 'generally' of the kind that are 'more or less' the sound of acoustic pianos.

    Pianoteq itself is a software. But the combination of Pteq and computer and keyboard and cables etc forms the piano. The integration of those components result in a piano.

    The main point of this thread is the function - the concept - of piano forte (now shortened to piano). Adequate soft loud control of the independent notes (generally of harpsichord keyboard layout, but it doesn't actually have to require a harpsi keyboard layout - but it turns out that the harpsi keyboard layout is probably the most effective input layout - which is why it has stayed with us for all this time). And since it has been achieved in various ways, we have ended up with various sorts of real pianos. All are real, because clearly we can play them (use them) in real-time, with music coming from them. And acoustic pianos (or even clavichord/clavier) were the 'first' kind(s) of real pianos.

            SouthPark But getting back to pianos

            I'll be really really honest here... I'm finding all this nitpicking about "what is a piano" extremely boring. And pointless. And futile. Kinda like this:

            By now I think everyone has given their opinion on what they consider a real piano and what's not. Kinda like the argument at exactly which point Data becomes a real human... some will say he always was, others will say he never will be. Yet no one ever questioned Data's usefulness to do what he was designed for.

            So if the object is to get back to pianos, I like to spend my time on a more useful discussion, such as finding the perfect little non-piano which we have been discussing these past few posts... I still want that cat piano... I'm sure they'll be back in stock someday right? 😃

                Sophia I'll be really really honest here... I'm finding all this nitpicking about "what is a piano" extremely boring. And pointless. And futile. Kinda like this:

                I know. It wasn't me doing the nit picking though. It's the ones that have the opportunity to understand that there are indeed several kinds/types of pianos today. And obviously they are all real. There are the acoustic ones and the digital ones, and they are all excellent.

                No nit picking from my side at all. I'm just saying that acoustic pianos are not the only kind of real piano.

                  I think we all will agree that you made your point. Again. And again. Can we also agree to completely drop it now? I have a feeling that otherwise this thread would get locked and I'm way too lazy to start a new one about cute mini versions 😁

                    Sophia Actually ... can you please take your 'non-piano' topic to a different thread that you can start up/create yourself?

                    I just wrote 'non-piano' because somebody else wrote non-piano. So I'm just using that word combination. I'm just saying it because this thread really is for teaching the essence of piano, and understanding the meaning/definition of piano. Also for a sense of unification.

                    And when people knowingly go off on a tangent, then it gives the mods their chance to lock the thread for their 'reason'.

                    And this good thread about piano should not be locked. We don't want a repeat of pianoworld behaviour where a pianoworld mod comes along to do their 'conversation exhausted - locking thread' power-trip thing. And importantly, I wrote pianoworld ... not Piano Tell.

                    It should stay more or less on-topic, and not go right off tangent, and of course stay nice.

                      I acknowledge your desire to continue indefinitely with the discussion of the essence/definition/meaning of "real piano" in this thread and not go off tangent, nor have a lively discussion on fun topics such as cat pianos or other such deviations. And of course I'm (almost) always nice so I will express my hope that you will get what you wish for 🙂 The stage is all yours!

                        Friends, how could things have gone downhill so badly like this?☚ī¸
                        To me it doesn't even matter what the instrument is called. To alleviate some of the tension, let's listen to this beautiful meditative track from the movie Blade Runner... a futuristic yet nostalgic piece by Vangelis called Memories of Green. It's about the memories of a replicant, a futuristic artificial being made to be as human as possible; those memories are actually false memories of a human life, implanted in the replicant at its inception. When the piece starts the piano sounds very electronic , but then in the middle part, when the replicant is deeply immersed in its memories, the piano sounds more like an acoustic piano, for a very short time. But what strikes me is that the piano sounds beautiful all throughout the piece. And it is, unmistakably, the sound of a piano: (pardon the bad visual quality of this very old video)

                          Sophia A soap box is all I need Sophia. Heheh ..... genuinely kidding. Actually, the cat piano looks fun to play. We definitely do have it in Australia, that exact same one.

                          Also, genuinely, my thread here really is for enlightening. If those selected others read through carefully the points, then they will understand that Wikipedia has a disconnect between definition and types. They begin with definition (hammer and strings) and then have a following section called 'types of pianos', which has digital pianos among the 'types of pianos'. But that obviously is a hold-it-right-there situation, due to the disconnect from their hammer and string definition that they started with. That is, in section B, they acknowledge digital pianos as a type of piano. But in section A, they define a piano as being one with hammers and strings. That's a clear case of hold-your-horses.

                            Sophia Kinda like the argument at exactly which point Data becomes a real human... some will say he always was, others will say he never will be. Yet no one ever questioned Data's usefulness to do what he was designed for.

                            That is a very good thought!

                            Data was never a human. And Data would never be a human. But Data was quite human-like in many ways, and wasn't to be discounted because he never was human. In some ways, people may have argued that he was better than any human ever would be, not being able to incorporate the darker side of humanity into his programming (hate, jealousy, etc). He could do many things humans couldn't. Yet there were still some things humans could do that Data couldn't. Emotion never quite developed. Humor never quite developed. Those situations requiring those would not have been a good fit for Data. But other tasks requiring precision, quick decision making, speed, patience, lack of emotion, yeah, Data was a wonderful candidate for the job.

                            Unlike some, I have no use for a "cat piano". LOL!! But hey, if that trips your trigger, go for it! There are real acoustic pianos that I have enjoyed thoroughly (a particular 7' Baldwin grand comes to mind) and other acoustic pianos that I have not found nearly as pleasant to play or listen to (a mid-sized Steinway grand comes to mind). There are keyboards that I have (and do) enjoy (my RD-2000 comes to mind) and other keyboards I have not had much use for (a cheap Casio keyboard comes to mind). I'm capable of playing any of them. They all have "keys" and make "piano-like" sounds. I'd very likely refer to any of them as "pianos" knowing full well what an acoustic piano is, mostly as a common term that is often used for any or all of them, accurate or not.

                            One might consider whether an item is a "facial tissue" or a "Kleenex". There are facial tissues that are not Kleenex but I'm not going to get too excited about someone referring to a tissue of another brand as a Kleenex. It's a common term, whether accurate or not and everybody knows what is being talked about. If it is important to you to differentiate, great, do so. Most people just wanna blow some snot and don't care to use their sleeve.

                              Rubens Your posts are always excellent Rubens. The Blade Runner post is very nice, and so welcomed. I'm a STTNG fan too actually.

                                Sophia I'm way too lazy to start a new one about cute mini versions

                                We can split the thread if you like and if that will work best for everyone. I can fork it off at the point where we start talking about fun keyboards and select only those posts... (in the future for any such requests, feel free to Flag a post).

                                --
                                Beach L168, Wish, baCh, WOW Petrof, Fake Steinway, VS
                                TIME

                                    Sounds good, thank you navrinda. We wouldn't want to take away from serious education and enlightenment by providing some fun now would we 😃 (ok sorry, I couldn't help it, below the belt I know, well I did say I'm mostly nice. I can also be a little snarky. Sorryyyy)

                                    SouthPark That is the exact thing. The exact thing. Notice the contradiction? If it doesn't 'matter' to someone, then they wouldn't initially say that it doesn't matter, and then follow up with a 'that said' -- and then begin to add their opinion, such as 'it's a bit nonsensical that .....'. If you know what I mean. This also goes for taushi and some others too - where they write - it doesn't matter. But then they follow-up with details that makes it obvious that it matters to them.

                                    Sorry, I guess I was being imprecise - rather than saying it doesn't matter, I probably should have said it shouldn't matter. I used a VPC-1 for over half a decade as my primary instrument and would happily tell people that I "play piano". Nobody asked me if I owned a "real piano" and I never once thought about whether the VPC-1 should be philosophically classified as a "real" piano. Because at the end of the day, it's a tool to make music. Who cares if it's "real" or not as long as it meets my artistic needs?

                                    But clearly this is a very important topic to you SouthPark, so I'm engaging with the discussion out of respect of the fervor of your opinion. This is, after all, a forum for discussing pianos!

                                    The best analogy I can think of to explain my viewpoint is art. Would you describe this digital image as "real art"?

                                    I certainly would! No one can argue that the image isn't real. Next, what's the medium?

                                    This image was created on a computer (likely with a program like Procreate) so the medium would be classified as "digital media". Although there appear to be brush strokes of maybe an oil-based paint, these are digitally simulated. You might also classify this as a "digital painting" to emphasize that it was made with simulated brush strokes, as opposed to other digital techniques.

                                    So it's real art. But is it a "real" painting? This is really the heart of our discussion. To answer this, let's think about the context for the word "real" and why someone might be asking this question.

                                    Suppose I was the artist, and I had this image on my online portfolio. Someone might ask if this was a "real painting" for several reasons:

                                    • They want to buy it, if it's a physical painting. A potential customer might want to buy a real, physical painting created with oil-based paint on canvas, to hang on a wall and appreciate the three-dimensionality of paint on canvas. In this context, it would be disingenuous, if not fraudulent, to claim that it's a "real" painting if the product is in fact digital media only.
                                    • They want to judge my artistic capabilities. Perhaps someone is interested in commissioning a piece of physical art, and they are curious about my experience with oil-based paint on canvas.

                                    In these contexts, "real" is referring to whether the painting was created with physical media. No one asking this question is attempting to engage in an ontological discussion of whether this piece of art truly exists. They're asking about the medium and whether the image was created via simulated (digital) or real (physical) paint.

                                    I view the use of the word "real" when describing digital vs. acoustic pianos similarly, because much like digital brushstrokes vs. oil on canvas, the sound of a digital piano is a virtual simulation of the sound of an acoustic instrument. If someone hears a recording of a piano piece and asks, "is this a real piano?", they're almost certainly asking if it was recorded on an acoustic instrument.

                                    But again, I don't really think it matters. Although I don't believe the phrase "real piano" applies to a digital keyboard, there's no question that a digital instrument can be used to make real music. And in many cases, you can make better music on a digital piano than an acoustic instrument. So who cares if your digital keyboard is a "real piano" or not, if you're making real music?

                                        shawarma_bees Thanks SB. That is fine. And that is the exact thing. If it really didn't matter to you or shouldn't matter, then you wouldn't have posted all of that ..... about nonsensical etc. After all ... my original post is supportive and unifying. So if it doesn't matter (or shouldn't matter), then either do nothing, or add a like etc.

                                        That art you posted is really great. I like that one. That's real art according to me. I don't care what anybody else reckons - but that one gets a 10 out of 10 from me, and both thumbs up.

                                        Now, with the piano thing again, one point of interest is that wikipedia etc really does define piano with hammers and strings, and that is it. And they then wormhole (tunnel) through to 'types of pianos', where digital pianos appear 'magically' ... no strings or hammers attached, which doesn't align with their definition, but yet they have digital pianos under 'types of pianos'.

                                        So ... when we see this sort of thing, it is then time to mention it. It actually matters from a definitions and communications and educational perspective.

                                            Sophia But going back to that dinky little keyboard - I'm really curious why you don't like it, @johnstaf before I waste money on something that's useless.

                                            It has tiny keys that are difficult to play (for me anyway). Dynamics are very difficult to control. I didn't buy it to play like a piano, and never really used the keyboard anyway.