• Digital Pianos

  • Can even the top end hybrids really satisfy a grand player?

That's what we disagreed on already taushi. I'm saying that hybrid digital pianos and non-hybrid digital pianos are pianos, just as acoustic pianos are pianos. Where-as you're saying that hybrid digital pianos and non-hybrid digital pianos are not pianos.

Using a stick that presses a button is efficient and effective for piano playing/performance - and even overcomes the thunks, clunks and other invasive type noises of the full mechanical system (aka yesterday's technology, which of course is still fine - can still make music with it obviously, which is nice).

Regardless of whether we call them hybrid or not - they are pianos. It's just up to us piano players (the driver) to pair up -- team up - with the piano, and generate music with it.

For example - we can be sure that his person here could hop on any piano and generate golden music on anything that has adequate substance. And as I mentioned - no genre of music is overall better than another.

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But don't ask me about how that Kurzweil is producing the sounds in the first vid - as it doesn't appear to be connected to power or speakers etc. That person most likely has perfect/absolute pitch abilities and is able to do 'shadow' playing. Impressive.

This all relates to the original comment about 'satisfy'. Because a lot of us are acoustic grand piano players (too), which (acoustic grand pianos and acoustic upright pianos) are excellent music instruments - no doubt about it. A lot of us just switch back and forth between pianos - regardless hybrid or not - and no issues with that. In fact, switching around is all part of the fun of playing pianos. Once again - it is true that acoustic pianos are not the same as digital pianos (and vice versa) - and that it was mentioned that even acoustic pianos even among themselves - the same model - are often on the same among individuals. Most likely 'less-so' for many digital pianos, where mechanisms have similar behaviour (among individuals of the same model of digital piano) due to the 'modern' production processes and design - which tends to allow for a particular level of 'control' of the piano, and certainty - where some/many people like that, as in --- a lot of people talk about wanting 'best' control/repeatability/consistency - less 'uncertainty'.

    Thank you Taushi, making things very clear. 😊

    *
    ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

    SouthPark

    Actually, nothing in my most recent post was a revisiting of the tangent you inserted around “what constitutes a real piano”. My most recent post was just sharing the “conventional definition” of a hybrid piano.

    I’ve already been very clear on the differences between real acoustic pianos and approximative digital pianos. As much of what you’re saying is highly subjective and rooted in your own personal ideology more than in the conventional wisdom on the subject, It’s not a discussion I will be revisiting

        Taushi Actually, nothing in my most recent post was a revisiting of the tangent you inserted around “what constitutes a real piano”. My most recent post was just sharing the “conventional definition” of a hybrid piano. I’ve already been very clear on the differences between real acoustic pianos and approximative digital pianos.

        Ok. We'll go with acoustic pianos are approximations of digital pianos and vice-versa. Both types are pianos - real pianos, and they're equally outstanding in the music world(s). Also noting that hybrid pianos (with their digital side) are digital pianos (which are pianos).

        And tracking back to the opening post topic about satisfying an acoustic grand piano player -- then we have to consider how many acoustic grand piano players there are, and there is always going to be a range of different opinions.

        And one opinion is - playing the piano means to just play it, regardless of what it is - as long as it works, or mostly works. But when buying - test driving is always highly recommended. The 'try adequately before buying' recommendation is good.

        And finally ... adding the words 'make the claim' (re: opening post) could possibly be a hint of wanting to start something here? We won't go there though - as this is Piano Tell, not PW.

            SouthPark

            I don’t agree. I’ve been very clear on that. I am not revisiting the discussion. I have detailed my opinion and provided supporting facts and data. My opinion has not changed, and won’t be changed by your argument.

            You’re entitled to your opinion, but you need to realize that it will not be shared by many. Repeating your views ad nauseam, across threads and forums, won’t change anyone’s mind, especially when your views are not rooted in fact or conventional wisdom, but are highly subjective and reflect your own personal ideology and mantras. It should be enough to you that you believe what you believe.

            I don’t think there’s anything else for us to discuss, so I’ll disconnect from this interaction.

                Taushi The Kawai CA series only uses a small key stick that presses a button:

                Kawai's wooden-key digital piano actions are designed around the concept of the keystick pushing a hammer which presses a sensor (switch). This is true of the latest Kawai "Grand Feel" actions, which are explained in this video.

                Taushi The Kawai CA97 isn’t a hybrid

                When Kawai introduced the CA91, the first digital piano to incorporate a soundboard, I believe the "Hybrid" tag was applied.

                However, these days (at least within Kawai Japan), the "Hybrid" term is more commonly used to refer to acoustic instruments that incorporate digital technologies (such as the ATX and AURES models), or digital instruments that incorporate acoustic piano keyboard action/pedal mechanisms (NOVUS models):

                https://www.kawai-global.com/product/c/hybridpianos/

                I hope this helps.

                Kind regards,
                James
                x

                      The kawai website itself says hybrid for the CA97. That is a fact.

                      It's ok though, as the CA97 is not only a piano. But is also an excellent piano. This is regardless of what mechanism it has.

                        SouthPark The kawai website itself says hybrid for the CA97. That is a fact.

                        I don't disagree that the Kawai America website refers to the CA97 as a "hybrid piano". However, to my knowledge, Kawai Japan did not use this terminology to refer to the product.

                        The CA97 was discontinued in late 2017, however the product page is still online on the Kawai Global website for archival purposes: https://www.kawai-global.com/product/ca97/

                        You'll note that "hybrid" is not mentioned on the above page. Moreover, the CAx7 brochure from that generation also does not refer to "hybrid": https://www.kawai-global.com/data/catalogue/CAx7_brochure_EN_300dpi.pdf

                        I hope this helps.

                        Kind regards,
                        James
                        x

                            KawaiJames However, these days (at least within Kawai Japan), the "Hybrid" term is more commonly used to refer to acoustic instruments that incorporate digital technologies (such as the ATX and AURES models), or digital instruments that incorporate acoustic piano keyboard action/pedal mechanisms (NOVUS models):

                            KawaiJames I don't disagree that the Kawai America website refers to the CA97 as a "hybrid piano". However, to my knowledge, Kawai Japan did not use this terminology to refer to the product.

                            The CA97 was discontinued in late 2017, however the product page is still online on the Kawai Global website for archival purposes: https://www.kawai-global.com/product/ca97/

                            You'll note that "hybrid" is not mentioned on the above page. Moreover, the CAx7 brochure from that generation also does not refer to "hybrid": https://www.kawai-global.com/data/catalogue/CAx7_brochure_EN_300dpi.pdf

                            I hope this helps.

                            Kind regards,
                            James
                            x

                            Thank you for these points of clarification. This is what matters.

                            And it’s not only true of Kawai, but also Yamaha. The conventional popular definition of a “hybrid” has settled into being a digital piano with a true acoustic action inside.

                            And neither the CA series by Kawai nor the GP series by Casio meet that definitions.

                            Now, that said, both the CA series by Kawai and the GP series by Casio are superb instruments. As I’ve said, I actually prefer the Casio-GP I now own to the Yamaha N1X hybrid I previously owned and many have extolled the virtues of the CA series.

                                So for the purposes of this forum can we refer to hybrids as those digital pianos which have an acoustic action inside them? Realizing that the AvantGrand and Novus pianos don't have an exact acoustic action inside them, they are enough of an acoustic action as to not feel markedly different to a grand or upright piano. We could for the sake of argument include the Casio Celviano as it has many of the components of the grand action but it is not a true grand action. In theory you could swap the hammers out of the AvantGrand or Novus and use it in a grand piano (aside from strike point issues....) which you couldn't do with the Casio.

                                I believe that the Roland pianos are not Hybrids, because they don't contain any acoustic piano components. They're great pianos and I've always really enjoyed playing them, but they're not true hybrids in that sense. The Kawai CA-series are acoustically hybrids because of the soundboards, but it's a bit confusing to use the name hybrid for an entirely different product. Again, they have really beautiful actions and they sound lovely, and are great for practicing on but they're not hybrids.

                                My two grand pianos and my upright all have entirely different actions in them. Going from the BlĂŒthner Patent to the double repetition to the upright requires about the same level of adapting in my technique as it does going from any one of them to my P515. In the practice rooms in Glasgow I'd go from a Yamaha C3L with a bright sound and fairly light touch to the teaching room with a very mellow Hamburg Steinway A with a more robust action, and that required a level of adapting in the touch as well. Playing the CFIIIS was very different to playing the Steinway D, which is different to playing a Shigeru Kawai, which is different to a BlĂŒthner Model 1 or a Bösendorfer 280VC, and they're all different to the Imperial.

                                You can only cut your coat according to your cloth - and I don't know you might have unlimited cloth but my point is that these days, a lot of the trouble that people have with digital pianos is actually emotional. Clavinova, Roland, Kawai, Casio, and all the hybrids are all good pianos for learning notes. It's a little bit harder on them to hear in full resolution what you're trying to do artistically so things like pedaling, articulation, legato, are all going to require some time on an acoustic piano.

                                Two fabulous pianists I know from Moscow practice on Clavinovas on a regular basis. One of my teachers, who was Goldenweiser's student, prepared for a Wigmore Hall recital in the late 1980s on a Clavinova, it was a CLP-560 or something, not a great piano by today's standards at all. I asked her how that affected her performance and she said it made no difference. She said that the real sound was in her inner ear all the time. Now, I don't like that idea of the real sound being in the inner ear, and only in the inner ear, because obviously you have to react to the instrument and the surroundings, but I also think she was making a good point that it comes from within.

                                After all that rambling though, I side with those who believe a Hybrid is a piano with a full acoustic action, be it slightly modified or not. I would include the Casio Grand Hybrid in that although it's not quite the same, but I wouldn't include the Kawai CA97 or Roland LX series in that - even though they're great pianos.

                                Taushi I don’t agree. I’ve been very clear on that. I am not revisiting the discussion. I have detailed my opinion and provided supporting facts and data. My opinion has not changed, and won’t be changed by your argument.

                                That is obviously no problem if you don't agree taushi. I'm basically just teaching you. It's not an 'opinion'. It's teaching you that hybrid digital pianos and non-hybrid digital pianos etc are all pianos. The obvious hint (or clue) is right in front of your eyes, in front of your nose. The word piano - is in 'digital piano' (and also in 'acoustic piano'). No matter which way you 'look' at it, it is right there in front of your eyes. Piano. And a piano is a piano, and if it works and you can use it in real time, then it's a real piano. Also - it is actually very good and/or nice to realise the obvious. They're all pianos. Real pianos. You basically cannot disagree with the word 'piano' (in digital piano and acoustic piano, electric piano etc). That's why people call their pianos (regardless of hybrid, digital, acoustic etc) their piano. Because they (those instruments) are after-all --- pianos. Real ones.

                                Also - if kawai USA has on their site that CA97 is a hybrid, then what's happening between kawai USA and kawai Japan? Is there some sort of disconnect going on or something? If kawai Japan reckons not a hybrid, and kawai USA reckons hybrid (regardless of definition. and regardless of timing - since it indeed has the word 'hybrid' at the site), and they're both flying the kawai flag, then there needs to be a 'please explain' at both the kawai USA and kawai Japan websites.

                                    SouthPark This discussion is over for me. I was very clear on that, and I don’t have any desire to discuss it further with you. Thanks.

                                      If I may contribute with my input...
                                      While I do prefer the sound of acoustics in general, I think maybe digital piano makers have not been focusing on the right thing. So far I think the focus has been mostly to replicate the sound of acoustics as realistically as possible, and maybe that will always be a losing proposition. So I've been wondering, instead of merely emulating the sound of acoustics, why not try to surpass it in some aspects? For example, there are parameters of timbre that most people find to be pleasant, such as warmth, sustain, clarity, brilliance without being overly percussive, and so on. Digital pianos can boost those select parameters, maybe to levels that acoustics cannot match. Of course it will sound artificial, but that is not the point. Think of how animation movies can feature characters and landscapes that look more enchanting, colorful or expressive (when it comes to characters) than anything in real life. (I'm thinking about the concept of the superstimulus here.) Usually when those movies are remade in live action versions people don't like them as much as the animation versions. Could a similar phenomenon happen in the world of digital piano sounds? Would those enhanced albeit artificial sounds be good enough to compensate for the lack of realism and maybe even satisfy grand piano players? Has this already been attempted? Frankly I don't know enough about DP's so I'm just hypothesizing here.

                                        Rubens This is a good way to look at things! Digital pianos attempting to faithfully replicate acoustic piano sound is a bit of a losing proposition, but digital pianos doing things that only digital pianos can do is intriguing and coherent (I've never played on one but that one Roli keyboard comes to mind as something that seems to come from this mindset). I mean, just think about electric vs. acoustic guitars.

                                        "You're a smart kid. But your playing is terribly dull."

                                            TheBoringPianist As can be seen with PTeq Bosie ..... substantial progress has been made in terms of the sound impressing a lot of highly experienced musicians and piano players. The impressiveness is ..... credit to the people that have been doing the hard yards in that area.

                                            Plus those people that accumulatively contributed ... from the beginning. The math people, the physics/science people, the audio people, musicians, recording people, electronics people, the materials people, chemicals people, engineers, manufacturing, techs, supporters etc. Hats off and on to them. They are good. Very good. Excellent in fact.

                                              To some extent, there are some that do that.

                                              The “felt piano” VSTs come to mind with their super exaggerated felt sounds, soft attacks, dreamy sonic ambience, and even added synth sounds. There’s been a number of these which have become super popular, and, may be a even better choice than an acoustic piano for certain genres of music, like “Lo-fi”, New Age, Meditation, and Modern Classical.

                                              I actually consider keyboards and synths to be the keyboard equivalent of electric guitars, in how they’re based around many of the characteristics of pianos, but take things in a different direction that can actually seem authentic in a way that emulative sampling hasn’t.

                                              Even Pianoteq seems to really win when it’s creating “new” or capturing lesser-known piano tones/timbres instead of attempting to capture name brand/well-known timbres.

                                              _

                                              Also, I think that while no digital piano has a sound set that matches an acoustic, there are a lot of VSTs that come quite close. And I still don’t think there’s a VST out there that fully captures what VSTs are capable of.

                                              I’d still love to see a company like VSL sample a more general piano, like a Steinway or Yamaha, in an acoustically treated room (to avoid room ambience and truly capture every aspect of an instrument’s sound), and sample both sustain and una corda with the same level of comprehensiveness with which they’ve done their previous pianos. I think that could be THEE VST that creates a new level of authenticity and immersion. And it’s possible now that we have the computers, processors and drives that could handle something like that, the microphones that could capture it, and the coding that the best VSTs makers use is pretty excellent now.

                                              I’d also love to see digitals finally start using better sampling that what they come with, as that would help the close the gap much more. Instead of using four and five layer samples recorded in medium fidelity, they could do much better in terms of their sampling and really take digitals to a new level.

                                              I’d love to see a digital running a native VST-level sound set. It doesn’t have to be VSL level, but it could be better than what it is.

                                                TheBoringPianist

                                                I don't agree with that. I think this idea is maybe nice as an additional instrument for people who already have a nice acoustic instrument. But there are also people who can't afford a good acoustic piano, or people who live in a small house and have to play with headphones because other familymembers are watching tv 4 meters away from the piano.

                                                I want to play the piano, not another instrument. And I want it to sound like a piano.

                                                    Josephine I don't think we actually disagree. I'm one of those people that can't afford the acoustic grand that I want and lives in an apartment. I like hybrid pianos for their touch qualities and would like it if their sound production qualities were closer to acoustic pianos. But I do think there should also be more exploration in piano-like digital instruments that take advantage of, well, being digital.

                                                    "You're a smart kid. But your playing is terribly dull."

                                                        Taushi in addition to the sampling/modeling element, it feels like another limiting factor when trying to approximate acoustic piano sounds is the quality of the actual sound production mechanism, i.e. speakers. I haven't looked enough into it to know if it's a frequency range thing or something else, but there's always something missing even in listening to a high quality recording through good speakers vs. live on a good instrument.

                                                        "You're a smart kid. But your playing is terribly dull."

                                                            TheBoringPianist

                                                            As long as they don't stop trying to replicate the sound and touch of an acoustic piano I agree. But it's a different instrument, and not something I'm looking for per se.