Video: what separates intermediate from beginner pianists

ShiroKuro · 2024-05-20T01:40:06+00:00

I have been referring to myself as an intermediate player for many, many years at this point, but I generally explain what that means by talking about reper...

ranjit

hebele I've seen circular wrist movements in random youtube videos. It is not in the method book I follow (Faber adults 1). I've recently got Hanon-Faber supplementary book because it has these circular movements in the beginning. But Faber puts the level of the book after the adult method 1&2. I've also heard that adult beginners tend to worry about technique and theory too much. So I guess I am worrying too much 🙂

No! You want to be as precise with technique as possible. Method books are horrible at teaching technique. Follow the videos.

Pallas

ranjit Hey, now. ❤️ Some of us do what we gotta do. I use Hanon-Faber too. There are videos that go along with the book, and no one's gonna die if we try it out at home. 🤣 I think you are a passionate person who really cares, so I'm going to hear your words in a very supportive and caring voice instead getting all puffed up like a mad turkey to argue. I appreciate how much you care about technique!

ranjit

ranjit I've also heard that adult beginners tend to worry about technique and theory too much.

It's this piece of advice that I think is highly misleading. I'm not so concerned about the theory part -- you can learn piano well without knowing much theory. But technique should be learned very carefully, so I disagree that adult beginners worry about technique too much.

IMO videos are way better at teaching technique than books. If you're learning kung fu, would you read about positions from a book which doesn't even have images, or would you watch an hour-long demonstration video on YouTube? I would say the same principle applies. (I recommend Denis Zhdanov btw.)

Stub

BartK I have the Mark Sarnecki "Harmony" series of books (Basic, Intermediate, Advanced) and it's pretty good but very dry. It's like a math textbook - some theory for 1-2 pages then a bunch of exercises based on that theory. I think you really need to go through exercises like that to really understand the theory. Just reading about it or watching a video is too little to truly become proficient and be able to use it on the fly.

I'd recommend a book as well and doing the exercises is very important. It's one thing to read through and say, oh, yeah, I get that, but another to have to actually do it or explain it. Plus writing stuff down (doing the exercises) helps you remember it. I used the Benwald and Saker books (Music in Theory & Practice) but oh, my are they dry. Something with an answer key would be helpful, as well.

PatG

Thanks for the YouTube videos by Seth Monaghan. He’s an excellent instructor. Started watching them last night. Much of it so far has been review. Figured Bass is new though.

cheeeeee

I’m definitely a beginner by the seven criteria discussed in the video. Very helpful information to have in terms of what skills are required to move to the next level. Thanks for sharing 👍

WieWaldi

Just watched the video.
7 times NO, but I catched the 2nd note of playing the melody by ear 🥳
So I am somewhere between bloody beginner and early beginner. 🤓

ErfurtBob

First of all: this guy is selling himself as a teacher. Some of the things mentioned, I would categorise under advanced and not intermediate. E.g. all basic chord sequences in all keys in all inversions. But it's nice to check where one still has to work on.

JohnCW

"I was never made to practice scales or arpeggios. What was needed to develop my abilities as a pianist was done exclusively through playing the pieces themselves" page 6, 'A Life in Music', Daniel Barenboim.

Apparently Daniel is still a 'beginner'.

SouthPark

JohnCW Apparently Daniel is still a 'beginner'.

True! As the topic says - intermediate and beginner pianists hehehe

As compared with intermediate and beginner piano players.

And there it is again (the vid that is) --- the classic or classical tendency or pattern (as in the guy in the vid) for some people to create divide among people ----- as in 'what separates?'' --- instead of something like - how to work (if you want) toward an 'intermediate' level relative to the 'beginner' level, where both are special stages of piano playing and generation of music.

iternabe

My takeaway is that one needs to strive to achieve more even development of a spectrum of skills as they progress. As someone who is self-learning I find this is especially a challenge as the temptation is high to skip the hard or unnatural part of the book lessons. Maybe that's one main benefit of having a teacher?

Sophia

iternabe Maybe that's one main benefit of having a teacher

Let me grab this question and run with it 🙂 I don't think the main benefit of a teacher is to make one do the hard part of the lessons. In other words, it's not their job to motivate the student or shove theory down their throats.

I think the main purpose of a teacher is to correct bad technique, wrong posture, counting issues, teach more subtle ways to express the dynamics, etc etc. In short, to make the student a better player. As a self learner we have to judge all these things to the best of our ability, with varying degrees of success. It takes a very special talent to be able to improve on all that without any guidance.

And yes, I fully realize I'm one of those without a teacher - but then again I'm also not overly serious about getting to a certain level in a hurry. I am realistic enough though to say that if one is wanting to reach a "professional" level, at some point one needs a teacher. Theory is only a small part of it.

ranjit

Sophia In other words, it's not their job to motivate the student or shove theory down their throats.

I will push back on this. One of the very good things about my teacher is that he knows how to motivate students. If you have a student who is a child, for instance, if you can get them excited about piano to the point where they end up practicing an hour or two a day, they will progress much faster than if they practiced much less.

I used to think I was very self-motivated, but having a teacher who believes in me and is good at motivating me has been the difference between putting 3 hours a day and putting in 4-5 hours a day. Because I feel like my effort is rewarded, and that extra motivation helps no matter how good you are at managing your own motivation.

Stub

Sophia iternabe Maybe that's one main benefit of having a teacher

Let me grab this question and run with it 🙂 I don't think the main benefit of a teacher is to make one do the hard part of the lessons. In other words, it's not their job to motivate the student or shove theory down their throats.

I think the main purpose of a teacher is to correct bad technique, wrong posture, counting issues, teach more subtle ways to express the dynamics, etc etc. In short, to make the student a better player. As a self learner we have to judge all these things to the best of our ability, with varying degrees of success. It takes a very special talent to be able to improve on all that without any guidance.

A teacher should be a good observer. Just as a pitching or golf or tennis coach will watch a swing and suggest often very subtle but important changes in movement that need to be made, so also should a teacher be able to watch you play and suggest changes that "correct bad technique, wrong posture, counting issues, teach more subtle ways to express the dynamics." This ability to move around and observe you from different angles and to zoom in and out is one of the big pluses of a good, in-person teacher.

Sophia

ranjit Good points 🙂 Thank you for that perspective. Yes you are absolutely right, if you FEEL motivated by your teacher and it encourages you to study more, then you ARE motivated by your teacher. Can't argue that 😃

Stub

ranjit Sophia In other words, it's not their job to motivate the student or shove theory down their throats.

I will push back on this. One of the very good things about my teacher is that he knows how to motivate students. If you have a student who is a child, for instance, if you can get them excited about piano to the point where they end up practicing an hour or two a day, they will progress much faster than if they practiced much less.

I used to think I was very self-motivated, but having a teacher who believes in me and is good at motivating me has been the difference between putting 3 hours a day and putting in 4-5 hours a day. Because I feel like my effort is rewarded, and that extra motivation helps no matter how good you are at managing your own motivation.

Yes. Learning to play the piano is such a big time and energy commitment that having a teacher who can help keep you motivated is a real plus. I am so appreciative of my teacher's continuing encouragement and motivation that stem from her own enthusiasm and love of piano.

ranjit

I think some of the concepts in the video go up to about early advanced rather than just beginner. That said, I do think this is an accurate perception of what advanced pianists consider "beginners". The pianist here has a doctorate in piano performance, etc. so for him everything below about grade 6 or so is likely equally easy and in the "beginner" category.

Several such teachers had referred to me as being a "beginner", and I considered myself one until about a year ago. This has nothing to do with the graded syllabus system. It's because I was still working on some of the very basics of touch, etc.

iternabe

Here is take from another YouTube teacher. I find it interesting that both teachers' final point for intermediate player is the ability to recognize mistakes by themselves.

thepianoplayer416

iternabe
The video brought up a lot of valid points.

When it comes to reading through a piece of music, we can all sight-read up to a level usually 2 below what we can play. Suppose we we're at level 5, we should be able to read level 3 pieces the first time with few mistakes. Level 5 pieces there is a learning curve to learn the notes, correct rhythm, etc. A lot of nuances need repetition to learn.

Learning with the help of a teacher is common but there are also many self-learners. And there are many recordings available on social media. Even a piece that is unfamiliar we can find sound recordings so we can listen to the notes, rhythm and other nuances before playing a note. We're not trying to read through a piece and then having the teacher correct our mistakes than comparing our playing to sound recordings and make our own corrections.

In the past we assumed the majority learn from a teacher but with social media there are a lot of self-learners.

WieWaldi

iternabe
Watching your video as well 😵, I come to the conclusion, I will be a beginner for the rest of my life 🥴. But I have a clever solution how to track my progress 🤣:

bloody beginner
~~newbie~~ total beginner
early beginner
real beginner
advanced beginner
proficient beginner
competent beginner
expert beginner

ShiroKuro

iternabe I find it interesting that both teachers' final point for intermediate player is the ability to recognize mistakes by themselves.

Wow, so this is something I tell my students a lot (I teach a foreign language at university) -- that they know they've progressed when they start being able to recognize (and correct) their (language) mistakes by themselves.

ranjit

thepianoplayer416 When it comes to reading through a piece of music, we can all sight-read up to a level usually 2 below what we can play.

If only that were true. sighs

JohnCW

thepianoplayer416 In the past we assumed the majority learn from a teacher but with social media there are a lot of self-learners.

It's probably not even accurate these days to call these people 'self-learners'. How many university students actually attend live lectures these days? Many sit at home and just watch a video recording of the lecture. Do they have a 'teacher' (lecturer) or are they 'self-taught'????

I'm never not enrolled in some online course or master class, but if someone asked me do I have a 'teacher' I'd say no. But then I clearly do, its just the nature of a 'teacher' has changed.

Player1

ranjit

I think "2 levels below" might be true once you get above a certain level of skill and have all of the necessary underpinnings of that level. For early learners there often isn't even 1 level below and it's only when you get into the intermediate levels that those "below" levels are there. Unfortunately, early intermediate learners often haven't been taught much in the way of sight reading other than through the standard lessons so we don't know the "tricks and techniques" of being able to sightread quickly and accurately.

Level 4 and up can probably sightread anything I'm playing right now as an early intermediate player. Yet I still have a hard time accurately sight reading most music, even early beginner stuff, that I haven't seen before. I can read and play it, just not after 30 seconds to a minute of review.

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