ranjit

I think "2 levels below" might be true once you get above a certain level of skill and have all of the necessary underpinnings of that level. For early learners there often isn't even 1 level below and it's only when you get into the intermediate levels that those "below" levels are there. Unfortunately, early intermediate learners often haven't been taught much in the way of sight reading other than through the standard lessons so we don't know the "tricks and techniques" of being able to sightread quickly and accurately.

Level 4 and up can probably sightread anything I'm playing right now as an early intermediate player. Yet I still have a hard time accurately sight reading most music, even early beginner stuff, that I haven't seen before. I can read and play it, just not after 30 seconds to a minute of review.

    iternabe I find it interesting that both teachers' final point for intermediate player is the ability to recognize mistakes by themselves.

    Wow, so this is something I tell my students a lot (I teach a foreign language at university) -- that they know they've progressed when they start being able to recognize (and correct) their (language) mistakes by themselves.

      BTW, Pianote did a survey of pianists to try to figure out how long it takes to learn piano.
      https://www.pianote.com/blog/how-long-does-it-take-to-learn-piano-survey/

      Their summary of the survey is interesting and worth reading in its own right, but in the context of this discussion, their definitions of levels is interesting… and imo completely unhelpful! 😄

      Here’s how we defined ability levels in our survey:

      Beginner: You’re learning the very basics of piano.
      Novice: You can play simple songs. You’re starting to feel comfortable and to have fun.
      Intermediate: You play well enough that other people see you as someone who knows what they’re doing.
      Advanced: You’ve been playing for several years. You may perform casually, and your audience finds your skills impressive.
      Expert: Music is your calling. You wow listeners with your skills and you may be earning money through performing, teaching, composing, etc.

      Only the first two (beginner and novice) are defined in any meaningful way. The other levels are defined based on perceptions of others (presumably non-piano playing others) and say nothing about what the pianist can do with their playing. I find it interesting (and basically unhelpful) that this is how they chose to set up these definitions…

        ShiroKuro Agreed! The definitions are subjective. I would say advanced would be playing pieces upto grade 8 ABRSM comfortably and well. So, Chopin nocturnes, easier Beethoven sonatas, a Bach prelude and fugue, well enough to pass an exam. I think "expert" is playing college level repertoire. But then there are levels of expert up to concert pianist.

        Then there is personal perception. I still feel like a beginner although I play better than some college students. I think it's only once I'm one of the best students at a university or a professional pianist that I will truly feel advanced. You know, be able to do things like name six note chords, gain perfect pitch, and learn an entire Beethoven sonata in 1 week.

          @ranjit yea I think it’s a better to use example pieces and specific skills to describe different ability levels.

          Yesterday came across a pianist on a public piano in a shopping mall. Looked young like somebody out of a local university. Beside him were 2 other people (not sure if they're family members or friends). He played a non-Classical piece flawlessly and with confidence. A lot of fast runs, big jumps & chords on both hands. Just listening for 5 minutes anybody would think his level is way higher than intermediate.

          Once we get through the first year, we'd consider ourselves an intermediate. Getting to an advance level would take a ton of practice for sure.

            thepianoplayer416 A lot of fast runs, big jumps & chords on both hands. Just listening for 5 minutes anybody would think his level is way higher than intermediate.

            Why was he an 'intermediate' player? Sound like he was a pretty damn good creative musician.

            Sydney Australia
            Retired part-time piano technician

              WieWaldi bloody beginner
              newbie beginner
              early beginner
              real beginner
              advanced beginner
              proficient beginner
              competent beginner
              expert beginner

              If you go be the above definition, "intermediate" is indeed pretty darn good, @JohnCW 😁

                Pallas I have the same question! Did he have a sign on his back

                I must admit I really dislike these types classifications based upon some technical exercise as per the original video. If someone can only play material considered beginner level, they are a beginner. If they fluently play immediate level stuff, they are an intermediate (solid amateur), same deal for advanced. Whether they can fluently play scales two hands together in all 12 keys makes them ..... someone good at playing scales.

                If someone can't even sight read, does that automatically mean they are doomed to always be classified a 'beginner'. I'd sure like to be able to play as well as a certain 'beginner'.

                Sydney Australia
                Retired part-time piano technician

                    I'm also wondering which grades are intermediate and which are advanced.

                    It refers to a certain abstract level, but it makes sense why you would have certain goalposts along the way. For a while, I didn't really learn scales -- instead, I was improvising and playing by ear. Some people would ask me, but can you play this scale? And I would just be thinking that it was a stupid question, because even if I didn't play the Bb harmonic minor scale or something, it would take me a whole 30 minutes to learn, so there wasn't effectively that much difference.

                    A few months ago I attended an amateur piano recital organized by a local piano group. It's specifically for learners who may have performed before want to gain more confidence playing for an audience. Any genre of music at any level welcome. The level varied from lower intermediate to advance.

                    I'd consider people who are comfortable playing a piece in public at any level to be intermediate. I know people who had taken lessons for a few years but uncomfortable playing in front of others. It's like telling me you pass your Gr. 3 conservatory exam but have nothing to show. A certificate on the wall is ok but I want to hear you play.

                      thepianoplayer416

                      But not everybody wants to perform. I don't want to perform, does that mean I'm a beginner forever, even if I can play a grade 8 piece at home when I'm alone?

                          Josephine But not everybody wants to perform.

                          Too right. Not everybody wants to perform or needs to perform.

                          Also ... I'm confident that anybody that has spent enough time on learning, developing, training in various aspects of piano and music will feel right at home on pretty much any piano.

                          Basically, it and music becomes a part of you, and the music is with you and can be generated by you one way or another on any piano, provided it works or mostly works.

                          And ... not that it actually matters, or at least not to myself ... I know that if one has developed to a particular stage ... people that see you play ... physically see you play will know that you know what you are doing, and music is in you. I just say it doesn't actually matter because I learn playing the piano for the love of piano and music. But I do like to share my music sometimes ... only to show some different sides of it, and that people can enjoy too.

                          It's a love of them thing (piano and music and sharing and maybe inspiring), and a fascination about how notes and sound can all combine in sequence from various different instruments to produce something so amazing ... so extraordinary. It's like a huge credit to the people that accumulatively came up with all these techniques and music throughout the times from the 'beginning' ... up to now ... and into the future. Amazing.

                          Also ... very importantly, no matter what level anybody is, we all had to start somewhere. And beginner area ... however that is defined, is indeed a special and wonderful area.

                            Interestingly, I always think of “intermediate” as a huge level with a vast internal range. IOW, there’s a big gap between the lower end of intermediate and the higher end. Whereas I don’t think that for beginner… that might not be a helpful way to think about it though… dunno, just thinking out loud at breakfast there…

                              ShiroKuro Interestingly, I always think of “intermediate” as a huge level with a vast internal range.

                              Well just to complicate the classification scheme a little more, recently finished reading the autobiography of Daniel Barenboim, 'A life in Music'. Somewhere in it he mentions his attempt at composing, quickly giving it away in frustration of not wanting to "add to all the bad music in the world" (it was something like that).

                              So who is the more 'advanced', the strong intermediate player who creates and plays fantastic arrangements, or the child prodigy recognized as one of the all time greats who strictly 'covers' other composers creations. Do we put the past greats Chopin, Beethoven, etc, etc on a pedestal for their playing ability, or their legacy of original compositions??

                              Sydney Australia
                              Retired part-time piano technician

                                  JohnCW So who is the more 'advanced', the strong intermediate player who creates and plays fantastic arrangements, or the child prodigy recognized as one of the all time greats who strictly 'covers' other composers creations. Do we put the past greats Chopin, Beethoven, etc, etc on a pedestal for their playing ability, or their legacy of original compositions??

                                  At this point, then, I think we would really have to add some parameters, and for example specific whether we’re talking about playing ability or composing. Because I don’t think it makes sense to attach the same labels (intermediate, advanced) to two different people based on different criteria. Say we end up labeling person A intermediate for their skillful playing and labeling person B intermediate for their compositions. They have the same label but for different accomplishments, so that label doesn’t help anything. IMO anyway.

                                    Not everybody feels performing in public needs to be part of learning. I have nothing against those who prefer to play in private. Personally I tend to have a bias towards students who can perform for a number of reasons.

                                    In my school days I learned violin. The school was semi-private. At the end of the year the people in strings & band classes would perform in groups for the parents. Partly to show the students made progress and partly as a fundraising event for school supplies (more as an obligation). Only part of the funding came from the local govt through the school board.

                                    The past decade I've been playing violin with a music group. I have musical friends who sang in a church choir. At a typical Christmas party we'd sing carols. Everybody is expected to participate. The majority who don't play an instrument would join in the singing.

                                    In my teenage years I have gotten used to performing. Over the years I met Suzuki & Yamaha people who are required to perform in a year-end recital from 1 level to the next and people who passed conservatory levels but never performed except in front of their teachers.

                                    People often say they'd practice a piece to a performance level but where do they perform? In front of their teachers. If someone can play a piece in front of a teacher, he/she should be able to do the same at home in front of a family member or friend. I don't mean in an auditorium with 50 or 100 people. Even being able to play the 1 song you really love.

                                    About 5 years ago I was at a gathering. A mother asked her kids who learned piano and passed conservatory levels to play something. There was silence in the room (nobody volunteered). To be fair, nobody touched a piano after their last piano lesson /music exam years ago. There are people who treat piano playing like academic exercises. Some would only practice for a teacher. Once they stop taking lessons, the piano just sit at home like a piece of furniture. I play music for stress relief and always find interesting pieces to learn. The ones I played yesterday I'd be able to play on a public piano. Maybe not the whole song but at least a few lines which isn't too unreasonable.

                                    2 years ago I heard 2 people who took piano / violin at a gathering. The teens passed their ABRSM-8 and played with a small ensemble. Grandma said they're talented and wanted them to play something. They both picked pieces their teachers assigned. My impression was that they have confidence performing in front of people but the ones they chose weren't super technical. Passing level 8 is already an accomplishment in itself.

                                      We are all different from each other. I started playing because I love music, but I don't want to entertain people. I play the piano for me, not for someone else.

                                      I haven't a clue what the "grades" are. When I first started taking lessons over a half century ago (dang, I'm feelin' old), I don't remember "grades" at all. My teacher had several books that she gave me to work on things but it was never going from beginning to end of any of them that I remember. And it came to a point where it wasn't "books" so much as individual pieces. I did have a book of Mozart sonatas but most were just individual pieces. Chopin's Fantaisie-Impromptu, or perhaps Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto #1... but that kinda was a book all by itself. LOL!

                                      Maybe my teachers were a little different, don't know. They generally put stuff in front of me and said "play it" and if I couldn't play it instantly, "learn it", which I would work on doing. And once a week, I'd have to play whatever part I was working on and they'd instruct based upon what I did that could be improved upon.

                                      To some extend, I feel like I could have benefited from some more technical learning, various kinds of scales, more advance chord structures, various techniques, but I'm slowly trying to pick up some of that now to compliment what I do now that I've gone over to the dark side... jazz. LOL!!