Sophia iternabe Maybe that's one main benefit of having a teacher

Let me grab this question and run with it 🙂 I don't think the main benefit of a teacher is to make one do the hard part of the lessons. In other words, it's not their job to motivate the student or shove theory down their throats.

I think the main purpose of a teacher is to correct bad technique, wrong posture, counting issues, teach more subtle ways to express the dynamics, etc etc. In short, to make the student a better player. As a self learner we have to judge all these things to the best of our ability, with varying degrees of success. It takes a very special talent to be able to improve on all that without any guidance.

A teacher should be a good observer. Just as a pitching or golf or tennis coach will watch a swing and suggest often very subtle but important changes in movement that need to be made, so also should a teacher be able to watch you play and suggest changes that "correct bad technique, wrong posture, counting issues, teach more subtle ways to express the dynamics." This ability to move around and observe you from different angles and to zoom in and out is one of the big pluses of a good, in-person teacher.

    ranjit Sophia In other words, it's not their job to motivate the student or shove theory down their throats.

    I will push back on this. One of the very good things about my teacher is that he knows how to motivate students. If you have a student who is a child, for instance, if you can get them excited about piano to the point where they end up practicing an hour or two a day, they will progress much faster than if they practiced much less.

    I used to think I was very self-motivated, but having a teacher who believes in me and is good at motivating me has been the difference between putting 3 hours a day and putting in 4-5 hours a day. Because I feel like my effort is rewarded, and that extra motivation helps no matter how good you are at managing your own motivation.

    Yes. Learning to play the piano is such a big time and energy commitment that having a teacher who can help keep you motivated is a real plus. I am so appreciative of my teacher's continuing encouragement and motivation that stem from her own enthusiasm and love of piano.

      JohnCW Apparently Daniel is still a 'beginner'.

      True! As the topic says - intermediate and beginner pianists hehehe

      As compared with intermediate and beginner piano players.

      And there it is again (the vid that is) --- the classic or classical tendency or pattern (as in the guy in the vid) for some people to create divide among people ----- as in 'what separates?'' --- instead of something like - how to work (if you want) toward an 'intermediate' level relative to the 'beginner' level, where both are special stages of piano playing and generation of music.

        I think some of the concepts in the video go up to about early advanced rather than just beginner. That said, I do think this is an accurate perception of what advanced pianists consider "beginners". The pianist here has a doctorate in piano performance, etc. so for him everything below about grade 6 or so is likely equally easy and in the "beginner" category.

        Several such teachers had referred to me as being a "beginner", and I considered myself one until about a year ago. This has nothing to do with the graded syllabus system. It's because I was still working on some of the very basics of touch, etc.

        Here is take from another YouTube teacher. I find it interesting that both teachers' final point for intermediate player is the ability to recognize mistakes by themselves.

          iternabe
          The video brought up a lot of valid points.

          When it comes to reading through a piece of music, we can all sight-read up to a level usually 2 below what we can play. Suppose we we're at level 5, we should be able to read level 3 pieces the first time with few mistakes. Level 5 pieces there is a learning curve to learn the notes, correct rhythm, etc. A lot of nuances need repetition to learn.

          Learning with the help of a teacher is common but there are also many self-learners. And there are many recordings available on social media. Even a piece that is unfamiliar we can find sound recordings so we can listen to the notes, rhythm and other nuances before playing a note. We're not trying to read through a piece and then having the teacher correct our mistakes than comparing our playing to sound recordings and make our own corrections.

          In the past we assumed the majority learn from a teacher but with social media there are a lot of self-learners.

              thepianoplayer416 When it comes to reading through a piece of music, we can all sight-read up to a level usually 2 below what we can play.

              If only that were true. sighs

                  thepianoplayer416 In the past we assumed the majority learn from a teacher but with social media there are a lot of self-learners.

                  It's probably not even accurate these days to call these people 'self-learners'. How many university students actually attend live lectures these days? Many sit at home and just watch a video recording of the lecture. Do they have a 'teacher' (lecturer) or are they 'self-taught'????

                  I'm never not enrolled in some online course or master class, but if someone asked me do I have a 'teacher' I'd say no. But then I clearly do, its just the nature of a 'teacher' has changed.

                  Sydney Australia
                  Retired part-time piano technician

                    No need for explanation. When we can read reasonably well without visual aid such as this, we are no longer considered beginners.

                    iternabe
                    Watching your video as well 😵, I come to the conclusion, I will be a beginner for the rest of my life 🥴. But I have a clever solution how to track my progress 🤣:

                    • bloody beginner
                    • total beginner
                    • absolute beginner
                    • complete beginner
                    • early beginner
                    • true beginner
                    • pure beginner
                    • real beginner
                    • late beginner
                    • prolonged beginner
                    • extended beginner
                    • perpetual beginner
                    • eternal beginner

                        Without beginners, there would be no intermediates and experts. Beginners unite!!!

                        Beginners tend to be short-lived. After a year or so we move up, some earlier. Folks who make little progress are likely going to quit.

                        The line between beginner & intermediate player isn't so clear-cut. Many people like myself started piano with little playing experience, maybe some reading & theory from playing another instrument. Many people gets into learning a very difficult piece they always wanted in the first few months. With very basic reading skills the learning is done by imitating YouTube video demos. They master 1 piece very well but still have a lot of gaps to fill so would be considered a beginner.

                          thepianoplayer416 Beginners tend to be short-lived. After a year or so we move up, some earlier. Folks who make little progress are likely going to quit.

                          I just think of it as growing and developing etc. A normal and regular part of life - developing. If one just keeps at it - no matter what rate it is, or how much time it takes - then they will keep developing. I generally don't focus on whether someone else wants to keep developing or quitting etc - as each person is different - with their own circumstances, situations etc. I think the main thing is about - what we want to play the piano for. That's if it is even important to somebody else or not.

                          I still have very very clear and strong memories of when I was an absolute beginner. Playing with right hand only, and not even knowing about finger sequence etc. I loved it already. It was in the amazement in the keyboard layout - which appeared to be of a form or format that is laid out in some sort of self-explanatory and intuitive ordered way, that allowed us to play various tunes that we like/love. The fun and enjoyment in trying to remember the key sequence - a fun and interesting challenge in itself -- is what I remember a lot.

                          It was only much much later, after understanding more about relative pitch methods and other amazing methods for navigating around the piano, allowing us to become more at one with the piano, and with music, which made things even more exciting/interesting/intriguing in piano and music.

                          But - just being able to play some tunes with my right hand - and driving the piano with one hand - and connecting with piano and music already did it for me. I actually and genuinely did 'dream' of being able to play with hand independence some piano pieces - or sort of generate some beautiful or elegant sounding music on piano. At that time - I didn't know if I could, or ever would be able to do that. My own approach has been - no matter how long it takes, and what rate I learn at, I would simply just keep learning and developing. And I can say that -- as long as we keep going, we're just going to keep developing, which increases those chances of what we would like to do in terms of expressing ourselves on piano - expressing ourselves musically.

                          I don't mean needing for other people to hear what we play etc. But of course, if other people enjoy what we play for them, then that is also extremely special. For me, it is about just loving to play the piano and love music.

                          And also, the internet is amazing - as it allows us to communicate with other people that love playing piano and music, and enjoying learning and developing as well.

                          Also - importantly - I think that if anybody does 'quit', then that doesn't necessarily mean end of the road permanently for piano. A lot of people have indeed started up again after some time. And regardless of what their aim/goal had been, it's their restarting that is really nice.

                            ranjit

                            I think "2 levels below" might be true once you get above a certain level of skill and have all of the necessary underpinnings of that level. For early learners there often isn't even 1 level below and it's only when you get into the intermediate levels that those "below" levels are there. Unfortunately, early intermediate learners often haven't been taught much in the way of sight reading other than through the standard lessons so we don't know the "tricks and techniques" of being able to sightread quickly and accurately.

                            Level 4 and up can probably sightread anything I'm playing right now as an early intermediate player. Yet I still have a hard time accurately sight reading most music, even early beginner stuff, that I haven't seen before. I can read and play it, just not after 30 seconds to a minute of review.

                              iternabe I find it interesting that both teachers' final point for intermediate player is the ability to recognize mistakes by themselves.

                              Wow, so this is something I tell my students a lot (I teach a foreign language at university) -- that they know they've progressed when they start being able to recognize (and correct) their (language) mistakes by themselves.

                                BTW, Pianote did a survey of pianists to try to figure out how long it takes to learn piano.
                                https://www.pianote.com/blog/how-long-does-it-take-to-learn-piano-survey/

                                Their summary of the survey is interesting and worth reading in its own right, but in the context of this discussion, their definitions of levels is interesting… and imo completely unhelpful! 😄

                                Here’s how we defined ability levels in our survey:

                                Beginner: You’re learning the very basics of piano.
                                Novice: You can play simple songs. You’re starting to feel comfortable and to have fun.
                                Intermediate: You play well enough that other people see you as someone who knows what they’re doing.
                                Advanced: You’ve been playing for several years. You may perform casually, and your audience finds your skills impressive.
                                Expert: Music is your calling. You wow listeners with your skills and you may be earning money through performing, teaching, composing, etc.

                                Only the first two (beginner and novice) are defined in any meaningful way. The other levels are defined based on perceptions of others (presumably non-piano playing others) and say nothing about what the pianist can do with their playing. I find it interesting (and basically unhelpful) that this is how they chose to set up these definitions…

                                  ShiroKuro Agreed! The definitions are subjective. I would say advanced would be playing pieces upto grade 8 ABRSM comfortably and well. So, Chopin nocturnes, easier Beethoven sonatas, a Bach prelude and fugue, well enough to pass an exam. I think "expert" is playing college level repertoire. But then there are levels of expert up to concert pianist.

                                  Then there is personal perception. I still feel like a beginner although I play better than some college students. I think it's only once I'm one of the best students at a university or a professional pianist that I will truly feel advanced. You know, be able to do things like name six note chords, gain perfect pitch, and learn an entire Beethoven sonata in 1 week.

                                    @ranjit yea I think it’s a better to use example pieces and specific skills to describe different ability levels.

                                    Yesterday came across a pianist on a public piano in a shopping mall. Looked young like somebody out of a local university. Beside him were 2 other people (not sure if they're family members or friends). He played a non-Classical piece flawlessly and with confidence. A lot of fast runs, big jumps & chords on both hands. Just listening for 5 minutes anybody would think his level is way higher than intermediate.

                                    Once we get through the first year, we'd consider ourselves an intermediate. Getting to an advance level would take a ton of practice for sure.