Video: what separates intermediate from beginner pianists

ShiroKuro · 2024-05-20T01:40:06+00:00

I have been referring to myself as an intermediate player for many, many years at this point, but I generally explain what that means by talking about reper...

Josephine

Is the Roman numeral chord notation also used when you learn only classical music?
Here you often have to choose which direction you want to go. I was looking for a new teacher recently and I found two, and both teach classical. They both said that the first year(s) they can teach both, but when you don't want to be taught the classical way they are going to recommend another teacher. I wonder if you learn about Roman numeral chord notation when you choose classical.

keff

Josephine Is the Roman numeral chord notation also used when you learn only classical music?

I tend to think it is not used, at least in the many years I have been learning with four different 'classical' teachers. At least it has not played much of a part in my lessons. What has come up in the lessons is suggestions that changes of chord are recognised say in the left hand accompaniment. Is this the same or is it not the same as using Roman numeral notation?

Whilst writing this reply it occurs to me that there is a teacher Lona Kozik who runs the School of Music Theory in Devon UK that does use the Roman numeral system to analyse classical music. It is worth searching for Lona's website and registering because she produces some really interesting videos and sends out monthly emails which analyse different pieces of popular classical music.

ranjit

Josephine Yes, Roman numeral notation is absolutely used in classical music. It's often not taught to students because many students don't like theory.

Josephine

keff

Thanks! I will take a look at that website.
But I think I first have to read about the Roman numeral system, because I didn't learn it.

I think I can describe myself as a lazy beginner who can play intermediate pieces. Or an intermediate amateur who skipped some important things.

I can hear the difference between major and minor and I can play all major and minor keys, but I don't know how I learned it. I never practice scales or arpeggios, I want to, but I'm always going to start next week. I don't know a lot about theory, chords and so on. I can play or sing a melody back. I didn't understand it at first by the way, because my English is not so good. I thought he meant that you had to play the melody backwards. I thought, oh my god, do you have to be able to do that??

keff

ShiroKuro I very much liked this video and the presenter but couldn't answer yes to all the questions or points being made. Would have the greatest difficulty satisfying the the very first point! This is a video to watch again and perhaps develop an action plan.

Perhaps I have an excuse...I am not a musician but a scientist who likes music.

Josephine

I agree, it's nice to see this list of things you have to learn/practice/master. Now I understand why my former teacher looked a bit strange at me when there were some things I didn't know. I'm half beginner and half intermediate.

keff

I was most surprised/embarrassed when he started to talk about circular wrist movement because as far as I can recall this has never been talked about with any of my teachers. I can vividly recall being taught about keeping the wrist fully relaxed and I do play with wrist quite still. I have just played a piece with circular motion and I think it does improve the tone.

Stub

Another yes to the Roman numeral system and classical music. Josephine, it's worth spending some time learning it. It's not difficult, in fact it's very logical and, after you learn it, easy to use. I think most of the method books teach it. I just checked my old Alfred Adult AIO Level 1 book, and they start teaching it there.

ranjit

I got shot down before for suggesting this, but if it's up your alley, learn Roman numeral analysis. It's really not that hard, and puts a ton of things into perspective. It will also go a long way to help you learn to compose/improvise in the idiom.

Josephine

ranjit

Thank you Ranjit and Stub. I don't think it's used in my method books, but I'm sure I can find some info about it on youtube.

ShiroKuro

ranjit
It's silly that you got shot down for suggesting that. It's one thing to say (for example) "well, I don't have time or I'm not interested." But it would clearly be a helpful addition to one's knowledge of chords and music theory in general.

I should probably make it a point to do that...
Ranjit, do you have a recommendation for a text or resource for it?

BartK

ShiroKuro do you have a recommendation for a text or resource for it?

I have the Mark Sarnecki "Harmony" series of books (Basic, Intermediate, Advanced) and it's pretty good but very dry. It's like a math textbook - some theory for 1-2 pages then a bunch of exercises based on that theory. I think you really need to go through exercises like that to really understand the theory. Just reading about it or watching a video is too little to truly become proficient and be able to use it on the fly.

There is also this series on YouTube which is extremely well done but like I said you probably have to work on it a bit for it to sink in.

ranjit

ShiroKuro
This Coursera course. The fact that you have a peer reviewed composition at the end makes it really fun.
https://www.coursera.org/learn/classical-composition

ranjit

ShiroKuro

ShiroKuro It's silly that you got shot down for suggesting that.

Yes, their argument was that it was wasteful for beginners to learn that theory and that it served no practical purpose. I think it helped me when I was a beginner, because I finally understood what chords meant, how they could be substituted for one another, etc.

Stub

BartK I have the Mark Sarnecki "Harmony" series of books (Basic, Intermediate, Advanced) and it's pretty good but very dry. It's like a math textbook - some theory for 1-2 pages then a bunch of exercises based on that theory. I think you really need to go through exercises like that to really understand the theory. Just reading about it or watching a video is too little to truly become proficient and be able to use it on the fly.

I'd recommend a book as well and doing the exercises is very important. It's one thing to read through and say, oh, yeah, I get that, but another to have to actually do it or explain it. Plus writing stuff down (doing the exercises) helps you remember it. I used the Benwald and Saker books (Music in Theory & Practice) but oh, my are they dry. Something with an answer key would be helpful, as well.

ShiroKuro

Thanks for the recommendation, Bartk, I'll see if I can find that book.

ShiroKuro

ranjit thanks for the link, I'll take a look!

TC3

ranjit Yes, their argument was that it was wasteful for beginners to learn that theory and that it served no practical purpose. I think it helped me when I was a beginner, because I finally understood what chords meant, how they could be substituted for one another, etc.

I've come across this too at some other forums (piano and bass). To be clear, I think it's just fine if someone doesn't want to learn theory, but sometimes they go a bit far in claiming that it has no value. (How would they know? ... )

hebele

I've seen circular wrist movements in random youtube videos. It is not in the method book I follow (Faber adults 1). I've recently got Hanon-Faber supplementary book because it has these circular movements in the beginning. But Faber puts the level of the book after the adult method 1&2. I've also heard that adult beginners tend to worry about technique and theory too much. So I guess I am worrying too much 🙂

ranjit

hebele I've seen circular wrist movements in random youtube videos. It is not in the method book I follow (Faber adults 1). I've recently got Hanon-Faber supplementary book because it has these circular movements in the beginning. But Faber puts the level of the book after the adult method 1&2. I've also heard that adult beginners tend to worry about technique and theory too much. So I guess I am worrying too much 🙂

No! You want to be as precise with technique as possible. Method books are horrible at teaching technique. Follow the videos.

Pallas

ranjit Hey, now. ❤️ Some of us do what we gotta do. I use Hanon-Faber too. There are videos that go along with the book, and no one's gonna die if we try it out at home. 🤣 I think you are a passionate person who really cares, so I'm going to hear your words in a very supportive and caring voice instead getting all puffed up like a mad turkey to argue. I appreciate how much you care about technique!

ranjit

ranjit I've also heard that adult beginners tend to worry about technique and theory too much.

It's this piece of advice that I think is highly misleading. I'm not so concerned about the theory part -- you can learn piano well without knowing much theory. But technique should be learned very carefully, so I disagree that adult beginners worry about technique too much.

IMO videos are way better at teaching technique than books. If you're learning kung fu, would you read about positions from a book which doesn't even have images, or would you watch an hour-long demonstration video on YouTube? I would say the same principle applies. (I recommend Denis Zhdanov btw.)