ShiroKuro How are you liking it today?
Super busy day and I am exhausted, I'll report back but maybe not today!
sweelinck How did it work out? That comment seems rather dubious to me.
That was in reference to him adding tension to one string of every note before he started tuning, so that the overall tension of the piano would remain the same and not affect other sections of the piano. It did indeed sound weird and terrible; I got to briefly experience my instrument as a honky-tonk piano!
How did it work out? That comment seems rather dubious to me.
That was in reference to him adding tension to one string of every note before he started tuning, so that the overall tension of the piano would remain the same and not affect other sections of the piano.
I was thinking about that with respect to tuning stability, not whether the piano was in tune when the tuning was completed.
sweelinck I was thinking about that with respect to tuning stability, not whether the piano was in tune when the tuning was completed.
I don't know? I know that when you tune a banjo when it's way out of tune, the change in tension on the neck affects the rest of the tuning so I basically have to do it twice. I wouldn't be surprised if this also happens to pianos to a smaller degree. Edit: actually probably why when pianos need a pitch raise they go through two tunings.
The reason a pitch raise tuning requires two passes is that the strings tend to have memory, or hysteresis, for their set location. I don't know, maybe a piano tech can chime in, but setting strings to be significantly sharp while a tuning pass is made seems like it could possibly affect the stability of the tuning, and the extra stretching/tension seems like it could possibly lead to faster wear of the strings from the increased tension.
I certainly would not want this done to a piano with older strings, but maybe it nonetheless is ok.
sweelinck setting strings to be significantly sharp while a tuning pass is made seems like it could possibly affect the stability of the tuning
He said it's just a tiny bit, not enough to hurt anything.
sweelinck I certainly would not want this done to a piano with older strings, but maybe it nonetheless is ok.
Yeah he did say he wouldn't do this to an older piano.
If it is a tiny amount, what is the benefit? In the case of a pitch raise tuning, overstretching a little in the first pass is logical.
For me, a non-standard technique would be a bigger concern than whether a tech uses a tuning app. The tech who tunes my piano uses a tuning app, but makes final adjustments by ear. Using the tuning app as a tool, but not as the final arbiter of the tuning, still reduces the time spent on tuning, freeing up more time to spend on voicing, which I consider a win.
@sweelinck regarding tuning just a little sharp, that makes a lot of sense to me because as you tune, it affects the overall tension, which means usually when tuners finish, they have to go back to the start and adjust. This takes into account that progressive tension change. I bet a lot of tuners do this actually, and just don’t tell their clients they’re doing it (after all, the end result will be an in-tune piano). He probably just told @twocats because he could tell she would be paying attention.
My tuner is retired from working as the head tuner for the music school here, which has just under 500 pianos, including several very high end concert grands in four full sized concert halls.
As you can imagine, the experience of having taken care of so many pianos has not only made him an excellent tuner, but he has lots of tricks up his sleeve, as the saying goes.
He was telling me about tuning the concert grands. Because doctoral students have to do so many recitals, the concert halls are almost constantly in use and often there’s very little turn around time between recitals. The grands are kept under the stage directly beneath the stage's center, and when they’re used, there’s like a trap door there that gets opened and the piano is lifted straight up. So he would have to tune the piano under the stage, where the air is particular temperature. But then the piano lift is raised and the piano comes up to the stage, the stage lights are turned on and the temperature goes up just enough to impact the tuning.
He said he learned how to tune the under-stage pianos slightly out of tune (I think he said just a little sharp, but now I’m not remembering) so that when they’re raised up and the lights come on, the piano would be just in tune. He had to do it this way because he wouldn’t have time (or wouldn’t be allowed) to re-tune the piano in the time the piano gets raised up and the concert had to start. He also said this wouldn’t necessarily work on just any piano, but there were some S&S and a Fazioli that he knew well and could do it just right with.
And for the record, my piano’s tuning has always been pretty stable, but it has never better than since this gentleman took over its care.
So back to @twocats (sorry for the thread drift!) IMO the concern is not the technique used to get to the final tuning, but the actual tuning itself and whether it gets her piano sounding the way she wants it to sound.
That comment he made is very unclear because it doesn't say when it will sound poor and when it will sound better. If the tuner meant it will sound better by the end of his tuning, then the statement isn't overly shocking. I was under the impression in a pitch raise the tuner first brings all the strings up to a point fairly close to their final tuning and then goes through and tunes the piano again. That would not normally make the piano sound terrible at first but there may be other approaches to pitch raises that I'm not familiar with. It would be interesting if an experienced tech gave their opinion about what was done and why during this tuning session.
