navindra My tuners haven't been that talkative.

We didn't talk while he was busy working, but once he starts he doesn't stop! After he arrived we talked for 50 minutes before he started tuning. And then he finished the work about 10 minutes before he had to leave for his meeting, but then he talked so much that he was going to be 10 minutes late (and we had to get going to the symphony!).

Anyway, I heard him play after the tuning and I think my ear wants Perfect 12ths because that's what I'm used to. I haven't played it myself yet. I think I may just call the guy I don't like to do my regular tunings but I am convinced that this guy is absolutely worth the travel fee to do regulation and maintenance on my piano. He did some voicing and fixing some notes that were not changing tone when using the una corda pedal, and just watching how he works (and talking to him) I can tell that he's extremely experienced and can get so much out of my piano. He's very different from my old tech, who is cautious. This guy is a hands on guy, seems less meticulous, just jumps in and works quickly (and not afraid to put his fingers on the strings, not sure how I feel about that). But the voicing results were good! I asked him about the regulation since it's been a few years and he identified some things that he thinks needs work now. One thing I've learned over the years is that pianists think of "regulation" as a single checklist item but really there are so many different things that can be worked on that are lumped under that term.

He said if he were driving down for a day trip (2 hours each way) he'd only be able to work for about 3 hours unless he stayed overnight. I'll talk to him and propose that maybe he come down with his wife and we host them and make a working vacation out of it! Then he can really do a concert regulation on my piano over two days.

Khuja_Wangtishvili On the other hand side, I never asked him to tune my piano in a more soft way lol, which would be non-issue for him.

If his tuning is not to your taste, you should absolutely talk to him and get it to your taste!

        twocats If his tuning is not to your taste, you should absolutely talk to him and get it to your taste!

        Yes haha I just realized it while talking to you. His tuning and abilities are notch (you can clearly hear this), and I like him as a person, I can always call him if having any issue - and that's big value for me as well - he also knows that I will not invite any other person to take care of my pianos - so giving giving short advices or call between tunings is normal. But indeed good advice to talk 🙂

          Forgot to mention, I asked him to look at the una corda voicing because four notes didn't change tone when I used the pedal. You can adjust how far the keyboard shifts simply by turning a screw in the cheekblock and I don't remember what my complaint was before that but the tech over the past year had turned the screw, so if my original tech had done voicing for that, it was no longer valid.

          Anyway, the guy from yesterday did the voicing well but then he said he wanted to play around with the position of the strikepoint. Previously the pedal was just shifting the strikepoint to a different part of the hammers and the tone was softer but he adjusted it so that it was hitting exactly the same strikepoint but with one fewer string. So the tone is softer but you also get resonance from the string that hasn't been struck and it really changed the character of the sound, I can't remember the term he used to describe it but it was so right! Impressionistic, maybe?

          So with this adjustment I can definitely get three colors: uc (for an impressionistic feel), half uc (more soft and muted, reduced volume), and normal.

          Oh wow, I remember all the troubles you had when your previous tuner retired. And of course, the troubles I had with Mr. Shimmery Tuning.

          A good tuner is soooo important.

          @twocats How are you liking it today?

            twocats He warned me when he started his tuning, he said it'll sound really weird and bad before it sounds better.

            How did it work out? That comment seems rather dubious to me.

                ShiroKuro How are you liking it today?

                Super busy day and I am exhausted, I'll report back but maybe not today!

                sweelinck How did it work out? That comment seems rather dubious to me.

                That was in reference to him adding tension to one string of every note before he started tuning, so that the overall tension of the piano would remain the same and not affect other sections of the piano. It did indeed sound weird and terrible; I got to briefly experience my instrument as a honky-tonk piano!

                      twocats I'll report back but maybe not today!

                      no hurry of course!!

                        twocats

                        How did it work out? That comment seems rather dubious to me.

                        That was in reference to him adding tension to one string of every note before he started tuning, so that the overall tension of the piano would remain the same and not affect other sections of the piano.

                        I was thinking about that with respect to tuning stability, not whether the piano was in tune when the tuning was completed.

                            sweelinck I was thinking about that with respect to tuning stability, not whether the piano was in tune when the tuning was completed.

                            I don't know? I know that when you tune a banjo when it's way out of tune, the change in tension on the neck affects the rest of the tuning so I basically have to do it twice. I wouldn't be surprised if this also happens to pianos to a smaller degree. Edit: actually probably why when pianos need a pitch raise they go through two tunings.

                              The reason a pitch raise tuning requires two passes is that the strings tend to have memory, or hysteresis, for their set location. I don't know, maybe a piano tech can chime in, but setting strings to be significantly sharp while a tuning pass is made seems like it could possibly affect the stability of the tuning, and the extra stretching/tension seems like it could possibly lead to faster wear of the strings from the increased tension.

                              I certainly would not want this done to a piano with older strings, but maybe it nonetheless is ok.

                                sweelinck setting strings to be significantly sharp while a tuning pass is made seems like it could possibly affect the stability of the tuning

                                He said it's just a tiny bit, not enough to hurt anything.

                                sweelinck I certainly would not want this done to a piano with older strings, but maybe it nonetheless is ok.

                                Yeah he did say he wouldn't do this to an older piano.

                                      twocats

                                      If it is a tiny amount, what is the benefit? In the case of a pitch raise tuning, overstretching a little in the first pass is logical.

                                      For me, a non-standard technique would be a bigger concern than whether a tech uses a tuning app. The tech who tunes my piano uses a tuning app, but makes final adjustments by ear. Using the tuning app as a tool, but not as the final arbiter of the tuning, still reduces the time spent on tuning, freeing up more time to spend on voicing, which I consider a win.

                                          sweelinck he said it's just enough to balance out the tension when he tunes the other strings.

                                          Anyway, this is not a concern for me. What is a concern is that he feels free to put his fingers directly on the strings, and I'm going to tell him I want him not to do that in the future.

                                            @sweelinck regarding tuning just a little sharp, that makes a lot of sense to me because as you tune, it affects the overall tension, which means usually when tuners finish, they have to go back to the start and adjust. This takes into account that progressive tension change. I bet a lot of tuners do this actually, and just don’t tell their clients they’re doing it (after all, the end result will be an in-tune piano). He probably just told @twocats because he could tell she would be paying attention.

                                            My tuner is retired from working as the head tuner for the music school here, which has just under 500 pianos, including several very high end concert grands in four full sized concert halls.

                                            As you can imagine, the experience of having taken care of so many pianos has not only made him an excellent tuner, but he has lots of tricks up his sleeve, as the saying goes.

                                            He was telling me about tuning the concert grands. Because doctoral students have to do so many recitals, the concert halls are almost constantly in use and often there’s very little turn around time between recitals. The grands are kept under the stage directly beneath the stage's center, and when they’re used, there’s like a trap door there that gets opened and the piano is lifted straight up. So he would have to tune the piano under the stage, where the air is particular temperature. But then the piano lift is raised and the piano comes up to the stage, the stage lights are turned on and the temperature goes up just enough to impact the tuning.

                                            He said he learned how to tune the under-stage pianos slightly out of tune (I think he said just a little sharp, but now I’m not remembering) so that when they’re raised up and the lights come on, the piano would be just in tune. He had to do it this way because he wouldn’t have time (or wouldn’t be allowed) to re-tune the piano in the time the piano gets raised up and the concert had to start. He also said this wouldn’t necessarily work on just any piano, but there were some S&S and a Fazioli that he knew well and could do it just right with.

                                            And for the record, my piano’s tuning has always been pretty stable, but it has never better than since this gentleman took over its care.

                                            So back to @twocats (sorry for the thread drift!) IMO the concern is not the technique used to get to the final tuning, but the actual tuning itself and whether it gets her piano sounding the way she wants it to sound.

                                            sweelinck twocats He warned me when he started his tuning, he said it'll sound really weird and bad before it sounds better.

                                            How did it work out? That comment seems rather dubious to me.

                                            That comment he made is very unclear because it doesn't say when it will sound poor and when it will sound better. If the tuner meant it will sound better by the end of his tuning, then the statement isn't overly shocking. I was under the impression in a pitch raise the tuner first brings all the strings up to a point fairly close to their final tuning and then goes through and tunes the piano again. That would not normally make the piano sound terrible at first but there may be other approaches to pitch raises that I'm not familiar with. It would be interesting if an experienced tech gave their opinion about what was done and why during this tuning session.

                                              But y’all seem to have forgotten that @twocats was not getting a pitch raise…

                                              ETA also I have to wonder how much an “experienced” tech would have to say about this since there’s really not enough information available…

                                                ShiroKuro

                                                But y’all seem to have forgotten that @twocats was not getting a pitch raise

                                                Not really. That in fact was part of my point. Tuning slightly sharp on the first pass of a pitch raise would be logical.

                                                Ultimately, what matters is that the tuning proves to be stable, and @twocats is happy with it.