pianoloverus I couldn't hear any change in the sound other than a decrease in volume.
My iPad doesn't have a good microphone so you won't hear all the nuances anyway. It was quieter but also had less clarity in the tone so that it sounded very far away.
Personal choice, but I liked it much better that way.
twocats My iPad doesn't have a good microphone so you won't hear all the nuances anyway. It was quieter but also had less clarity in the tone so that it sounded very far away.
Personal choice, but I liked it much better that way.
In that case, I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to do it. If you thought the pulsating chord should be played fortissimo ha ha, then that would be in the unreasonable category but the tonal change with the left pedal on just two chords Is small enough that I don't think anyone could say doing it that way is wrong. I started a thread about this surgical pedaling with the left pedal on piano world and it may be interesting to hear what pianists there say about it.
Thank you. In this case it is of intellectual interest, and maybe a music appreciation one if we hear it being done. But if we don't have an instrument that has the means for doing this (that kind of pedal plus well maintained) then I don't see much use in trying to work with it.
Not quite the same thing but on a piece I was doing, I was advised against using the middle pedal, because not all pianos have that feature, so if you practise that way, then end up on a piano that doesn't have it, will you be able to switch your manner of playing such passages on the spot?
pianoloverus I started a thread about this surgical pedaling with the left pedal on piano world and it may be interesting to hear what pianists there say about it.
Please share if you hear anything interesting!
keystring But if we don't have an instrument that has the means for doing this (that kind of pedal plus well maintained) then I don't see much use in trying to work with it.
I agree, I don't think it's useful for you to try this given your piano. I'm pretty sure I'll only be "performing" (in quotes because most opportunities are quite casual) on grands and I will also have to see what the una corda sounds like and if it's not working on that piano to create the effect that I want, then I wouldn't do it. I'll just have to see if it makes sense!
twocats thanks for sharing the videos. I think this is likely something that gets a little lost in the recording. I had a hard time hearing the effect on the etude — perhaps because it’s so fast? I could hear the difference in color more in the ballade; it’s definitely different. I quite liked it without the UC pedal, but I also think the choice to use the UC pedal for those pulsing notes made sense.
Sgisela I had a hard time hearing the effect on the etude — perhaps because it’s so fast?
It makes it just a little sweeter, I think. It was much more evident in his video, to my ears. I really don't like renditions that are too loud and "brilliant" (my favorite is this recording by Rubinstein). I don't think I'd use the una corda in this Etude if I go back to learning it (for one thing, it's too complicated!), but I think it's a good demonstration of the "surgical" aspect of the pedaling and having to be very precise to get the intended effect.
I do think I will use it in the Ballade going forward though! I really did think "this is exactly what it needs" after I watched his video 
pianoloverus I started a thread about this surgical pedaling with the left pedal on piano world and it may be interesting to hear what pianists there say about it.
Here's something I wrote over there:
Something that Chiu omits to mention is that each time he lifts the shift pedal, all the notes of the piano are affected: when the hammers move to the left to give the melody note a brighter sound, the bass note will also have a brighter sound. We don't hear this on the recording because he is (despite what he says) playing the melody louder than the accompaniment.
He actually plays the bass notes on the beat so softly that they are often hardly audible, and Chopin's elegant arpeggio figuration turns into a vague mush.
You can't get away from this: if you are "surgically" pedalling the melody, any accompanying notes that fall at the same time as one of the melody notes will not be played "una corda". twocats' example of Chopin's 1st Ballade looks more hopeful, since most of the melody notes are played alone, with the accompanying chords coming afterwards. But there are always places where the accompaniment comes with the melody:
All the notes I have coloured in light blue can be played with "una corda", but at the ends of bars 10, 12 and 14 you're stuck with "tre corda".
So what do you do? Accept that these notes are the "wrong" colour? Carefully play them softer than the rest of the bass notes so they don't disturb the line? But in that case, why not just play all the accompanying chords softer and dispense with the surgical pedalling?
Here's the thing: on any reasonably well-regulated piano, when you play louder the sound doesn't just get louder, it gets brighter. And when you play softer, it doesn't just get softer, it gets mellower. This allows pianists to create an extraordinary variety of colour, by varying the force of the touch from one note to the next, from one chord to the next, between the hands or even between the fingers of one hand. The effects we can achieve with these means go way further than what we can do with the "surgical" use of the shift pedal.
I'm convinced that Chiu was so concentrated on this special pedal technique that he neglected many important aspects of this piece. He has pretty much turned the arpeggio figures in both hands into an "accompaniment soup", instead of the shimmering, complex tissue of counter melodies and counter rhythms it should be. The melody stands out, not as a singing line, but like a series of bells, disconnected from the arpeggios, instead of being woven into the texture.
I much prefer something like this:
MRC Here's the thing: on any reasonably well-regulated piano, when you play louder the sound doesn't just get louder, it gets brighter. And when you play softer, it doesn't just get softer, it gets mellower. This allows pianists to create an extraordinary variety of colour, by varying the force of the touch from one note to the next, from one chord to the next, between the hands or even between the fingers of one hand. The effects we can achieve with these means go way further than what we can do with the "surgical" use of the shift pedal.
An important point I think. IOW The softly played pulsating chords will, on a good piano, automatically have a different sound besides just sounding softer. It's not unreasonable to surgically pedal those chords you put in blue, but my strong suspicion is not many top pianists makes that choice especially since they will have the additional problem or inconsistency you bring up at the end of several measures where they are forced to use the right pedal by itself.
MRC We don't hear this on the recording because he is (despite what he says) playing the melody louder than the accompaniment.
He actually plays the bass notes on the beat so softly that they are often hardly audible, and Chopin's elegant arpeggio figuration turns into a vague mush.
Did he claim that he wasn't playing the melody line louder than the accompaniment?! I agree that his demonstration was mushy, but I attributed it more to his overholding the damper pedal (which I mentioned in an earlier comment).
When I was trying it out, I was very aware that the accompaniment lost the una corda during the quick lifts, but I also think that if it's so brief and the melody is singing above, and the accompaniment is quiet, that it's not really noticeable. That said, maybe this particular piece isn't the best use of this technique. I do think that having an additional tool in the toolbox to create contrasting colors is a wonderful thing.
MRC All the notes I have coloured in light blue can be played with "una corda", but at the ends of bars 10, 12 and 14 you're stuck with "tre corda".
So what do you do? Accept that these notes are the "wrong" colour? Carefully play them softer than the rest of the bass notes so they don't disturb the line? But in that case, why not just play all the accompanying chords softer and dispense with the surgical pedalling?
I decided to just carefully play them softer in the bass under the melody and at least they're single notes and not full chords, so a little distinct from the pulsing chords. Maybe it's because I'm not technically able to, or a limitation on my piano regulation, but I'm unable to play them softly enough on their own without risk of ghost notes where I like it as much as the "surgical pedaling".
MRC I'm convinced that Chiu was so concentrated on this special pedal technique that he neglected many important aspects of this piece. He has pretty much turned the arpeggio figures in both hands into an "accompaniment soup", instead of the shimmering, complex tissue of counter melodies and counter rhythms it should be. The melody stands out, not as a singing line, but like a series of bells, disconnected from the arpeggios, instead of being woven into the texture.
I much prefer something like this:
I'll check that out when I'm home with a better internet connection!
twocats Did he claim that he wasn't playing the melody line louder than the accompaniment?!
Here's exactly what he said (automatic transcription from YouTube subtitles):
what this allows me to do first of all is the melody comes out very naturally because it's a clear sound and because it's a little bit louder I don't have to play it louder it just naturally comes out louder and so therefore it really is a voice that floats above the harmonies because that's how the color is actually being used
second kind of a corollary to that is because the separation of these two layers is happening through color we no longer have to emphasize that difference with other spectrums uh one of which is Dynamics which means that the melody can be played not just from the mezzo piano to forte range you can go all the way down to piano or pianissimo to forte range
twocats I listened and I thought it was much too heavy-handed.
That's strange: I don't hear anything "heavy-handed" in that performance.
Rubinstein's version is absolutely beautiful, even if he does completely neglect the inner voices that Chopin marked in bars 15 and 16. But then, so do many other great pianists...
There are one or two measures where the pianist brings out an inner voice in the left hand which is very commonly done in that spot and may even be indicated in the music. Other than that I don't hear anything even close to heavy handed playing. The pianist was good enough to place third in the Tchaikovsky competition at a very young age.
pianoloverus There are one or two measures where the pianist brings out an inner voice in the left hand which is very commonly done in that spot and may even be indicated in the music.
I'll check it out later!
pianoloverus The pianist was good enough to place third in the Tchaikovsky competition at a very young age.
Just because a pianist is famous or very good doesn't mean that everyone has to love their interpretation of every piece they play...
I've found a reference to the "surgical" pedal technique in "The Pianist's Guide to Pedaling" by Joseph Banowetz (1985):
I personally wouldn't use this technique in either of these examples. I can understand the justification for the Schubert Impromptu, but I much prefer to use only variations of touch to make the melody sing: two different registers don't make sense to me here.
I think suggestion for the Chopin Étude is a very bad idea. It relegates the left hand sixteenth notes to the status of an afterthought, instead of making them part of the left hand melody.
MRC I have that book on the way! Yeah, I'm not sold on using it for the Chopin Etude either, I think he maybe just grabbed an example that he thought could clearly demonstrate the technique. I definitely need to think more about where I want to use it, but like I said, I think it's useful to have a new tool in the toolbox.
twocats Yeah, I'm not sold on using it for the Chopin Etude either, I think he maybe just grabbed an example that he thought could clearly demonstrate the technique.
To me all it demonstrates is that this technique makes no sense at all in this situation. Banowetz is writing what is meant to be a definitive book on pedal technique and he "just grabs an example? He's got the whole piano literature to choose from: couldn't he have found a better one?
