MRC Here's the thing: on any reasonably well-regulated piano, when you play louder the sound doesn't just get louder, it gets brighter. And when you play softer, it doesn't just get softer, it gets mellower. This allows pianists to create an extraordinary variety of colour, by varying the force of the touch from one note to the next, from one chord to the next, between the hands or even between the fingers of one hand. The effects we can achieve with these means go way further than what we can do with the "surgical" use of the shift pedal.
An important point I think. IOW The softly played pulsating chords will, on a good piano, automatically have a different sound besides just sounding softer. It's not unreasonable to surgically pedal those chords you put in blue, but my strong suspicion is not many top pianists makes that choice especially since they will have the additional problem or inconsistency you bring up at the end of several measures where they are forced to use the right pedal by itself.
MRC We don't hear this on the recording because he is (despite what he says) playing the melody louder than the accompaniment.
He actually plays the bass notes on the beat so softly that they are often hardly audible, and Chopin's elegant arpeggio figuration turns into a vague mush.
Did he claim that he wasn't playing the melody line louder than the accompaniment?! I agree that his demonstration was mushy, but I attributed it more to his overholding the damper pedal (which I mentioned in an earlier comment).
When I was trying it out, I was very aware that the accompaniment lost the una corda during the quick lifts, but I also think that if it's so brief and the melody is singing above, and the accompaniment is quiet, that it's not really noticeable. That said, maybe this particular piece isn't the best use of this technique. I do think that having an additional tool in the toolbox to create contrasting colors is a wonderful thing.
MRC All the notes I have coloured in light blue can be played with "una corda", but at the ends of bars 10, 12 and 14 you're stuck with "tre corda".
So what do you do? Accept that these notes are the "wrong" colour? Carefully play them softer than the rest of the bass notes so they don't disturb the line? But in that case, why not just play all the accompanying chords softer and dispense with the surgical pedalling?
I decided to just carefully play them softer in the bass under the melody and at least they're single notes and not full chords, so a little distinct from the pulsing chords. Maybe it's because I'm not technically able to, or a limitation on my piano regulation, but I'm unable to play them softly enough on their own without risk of ghost notes where I like it as much as the "surgical pedaling".
MRC I'm convinced that Chiu was so concentrated on this special pedal technique that he neglected many important aspects of this piece. He has pretty much turned the arpeggio figures in both hands into an "accompaniment soup", instead of the shimmering, complex tissue of counter melodies and counter rhythms it should be. The melody stands out, not as a singing line, but like a series of bells, disconnected from the arpeggios, instead of being woven into the texture.
I much prefer something like this:
I'll check that out when I'm home with a better internet connection!
twocats Did he claim that he wasn't playing the melody line louder than the accompaniment?!
Here's exactly what he said (automatic transcription from YouTube subtitles):
what this allows me to do first of all is the melody comes out very naturally because it's a clear sound and because it's a little bit louder I don't have to play it louder it just naturally comes out louder and so therefore it really is a voice that floats above the harmonies because that's how the color is actually being used
second kind of a corollary to that is because the separation of these two layers is happening through color we no longer have to emphasize that difference with other spectrums uh one of which is Dynamics which means that the melody can be played not just from the mezzo piano to forte range you can go all the way down to piano or pianissimo to forte range
I listened and I thought it was much too heavy-handed.
I guess we have completely different tastes since this one is my favorite! Though because it's so old maybe the fortes don't sound as loud. But there's such a sweetness to his playing!
twocats I listened and I thought it was much too heavy-handed.
That's strange: I don't hear anything "heavy-handed" in that performance.
Rubinstein's version is absolutely beautiful, even if he does completely neglect the inner voices that Chopin marked in bars 15 and 16. But then, so do many other great pianists...
twocatsMRC That's strange: I don't hear anything "heavy-handed" in that performance.
I'll try to listen on a better device! The left hand was very loud in some places and I thought it sounded like too much.
There are one or two measures where the pianist brings out an inner voice in the left hand which is very commonly done in that spot and may even be indicated in the music. Other than that I don't hear anything even close to heavy handed playing. The pianist was good enough to place third in the Tchaikovsky competition at a very young age.
pianoloverus There are one or two measures where the pianist brings out an inner voice in the left hand which is very commonly done in that spot and may even be indicated in the music.
I'll check it out later!
pianoloverus The pianist was good enough to place third in the Tchaikovsky competition at a very young age.
Just because a pianist is famous or very good doesn't mean that everyone has to love their interpretation of every piece they play...
I've found a reference to the "surgical" pedal technique in "The Pianist's Guide to Pedaling" by Joseph Banowetz (1985):
I personally wouldn't use this technique in either of these examples. I can understand the justification for the Schubert Impromptu, but I much prefer to use only variations of touch to make the melody sing: two different registers don't make sense to me here.
I think suggestion for the Chopin Étude is a very bad idea. It relegates the left hand sixteenth notes to the status of an afterthought, instead of making them part of the left hand melody.
MRC I have that book on the way! Yeah, I'm not sold on using it for the Chopin Etude either, I think he maybe just grabbed an example that he thought could clearly demonstrate the technique. I definitely need to think more about where I want to use it, but like I said, I think it's useful to have a new tool in the toolbox.
twocats Yeah, I'm not sold on using it for the Chopin Etude either, I think he maybe just grabbed an example that he thought could clearly demonstrate the technique.
To me all it demonstrates is that this technique makes no sense at all in this situation. Banowetz is writing what is meant to be a definitive book on pedal technique and he "just grabs an example? He's got the whole piano literature to choose from: couldn't he have found a better one?
I actually just noticed that Banowetz's example was actually two pieces, not just the Schubert. Sorry, now re-reading your post in a different context...
You mean it's Chiu who "just grabbed" an example? I'd say that's just as bad! He's making a video specifically about this pedal technique, to be posted on his own channel, and he doesn't take the time to find a better example than this?
I'm looking for more suitable passages, and I'm having a hard time. Here's a possible candidate, from Listzt's "Harmonies du Soir":
It certainly works, but having tried it, I must admit I prefer to simply leave the una corda pedal down and use only the subtleties of touch to create the required contrast between melody and accompaniment.
MRC You mean it's Chiu who "just grabbed" an example? I'd say that's just as bad! He's making a video specifically about this pedal technique, to be posted on his own channel, and he doesn't take the time to find a better example than this?
He clearly prefers to play that piece using "surgical pedal", and I do think it's a good example for demonstrating the precision needed and the "surgical" aspect. He did muddle the harmonies a ton with the damper though, so I'm wondering if this is a piece that he performs regularly with that same damper pedaling or whether he thought it was a great demo piece and just got so caught up trying to demo with his left foot on video that he muddled the damper pedal?
I do think I'll use it on the first page of Ballade 1, which is much less "surgical".
Whenever people make fantastical, outlandish claims about what is possible for a pianist…the first thing I do is think of what is possible for a PIANO.
What a pianist is doing physically is much less important than what a piano is actually capable of. Is what you’re claiming to be doing possible based on the mechanics of a piano and the laws of physics. So, let’s look at the claim from that perspective.
This man suggests that moving the una corda pedal only slightly, and at various exact levels, will somehow cause significant gradations of tone and timbre change, measurably by up to seven degrees.
Well…that seems highly, highly unlikely.
Let’s think of how the Una Corda pedal on the piano works. Simply put, the pedal lifts a rod, that lifts a lever that shifts the action to the right.
The action is shifted slightly so that the following things happen:
for notes that have three strings, the hammer only hits two of those strings.
for notes that have two strings, the hammer only hits one of the strings.
notes that have one string get struck by a softer part of the hammer
Again, even when you only partially push the una corda pedal down:
for notes with three strings: the first string will still be hit with the soft part of the hammer until the hammer completely clears the string. That’s it.
for notes with two strings: the first string will be hit with the soft part of the hammer until the hammer completely clears the string. That’s it.
for notes with one string: the string will be struck with the soft part of the hammer.
Remember, the grooves in the hammers caused by the strings are fairly small…those grooves are clearly fairly quick to clear even when you only partially put the pedal down, and then it’s just the soft part of the hammer until the hammer either clears the string (for those with more than one string). The bass strings will always just get the soft part of the hammer.
Beyond that, I can’t reasonably see anything else possible. The very, very, very minor changes in tone between those states would be almost impossible for people to detect, as evidenced by the fact that many people here don’t hear anything different. That’s not to mention that it would be nearly impossible to replicate this with consistently.
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Speaking of consistently: as for the arguments about whether or not pressing the una corda pedal down to different levels would achieve anything…that doesn’t make much sense either. Pedals barely move that much. To achieve these gradations of sound, one would have to move the pedal to the exact position that corresponds with where the hammers need to achieve these sounds. Trying to manipulate the pedal to multiple exact degrees, consistently and accurately to achieve these fantastical multiple gradations of sound, would require a level of accuracy that no human possesses.
Let’s say, for instance, that your pedal moves 2 inches from its unpressed to pressed state. To achieve these mythical seven gradations of sound, one would have to accurately be able to stop the pedal at…
1.) 1/4 inch
1/2 inch
3/4 inches
1 inch
1 1/4 inch
1 1/2 inch
1 3/4 inch
…perfectly, accurately, and consistently, each and every time one plays.
And that’s only if your pedal moves to such a precise degree. If your pedal moves at 2.367 inches from unpressed to pressed, or some other similarly complex measurement, then your ability to accurately achieve the pedal positions to accurately get the 7 gradations of sound would need to be even more precise to the point of laser accuracy.
That’s just not possible. Yes, there’s muscle memory, but this is cyborg/robot levels of control. It’s just not reasonable. Measuring perfect intervals of space accurately is hard enough when you’re trying to do it using your eyes and your hands. Trying to do it with just your feet - when you can’t even look down at your feet and see spatial measurements - AND somehow perfectly remembering EXACTLY how 1 3/4 inches FEELS seems completely unreasonable and impossible.
Not to mention that, should one wear shoes: the measurements would change, and would change depending on each pair of shoes one is wearing, because each shoe heel and material would be different.
Also…any time one is playing on a different piano, these measurements would be different, because every piano is different and even pianos of the same brand and model can have subtle differences.
So…not only would one have to have robotic levels of accuracy and the ability to physically determine spatial measurements by mere positioning of the foot…but one would have to be able to accurately change that each time one has on a different pair of shoes and/or uses a different piano.
This just doesn’t sound possible based on the human body’s capabilities.
Even Chiu doesn’t seem to be able to achieve what he’s saying. In the very video where he presents these ideas:
…around the 6:00 mark, he talks about how he’s going to lift the pedal each time he gets to the melody note to highlight the melody. And he does do that for a few seconds…
…but about 5 second into the Chopin passage, he starts lterally pressing the una corda pedal down AS he’s playing the melody. While he starts off doing what he claims, it’s as if his left foot subconsciously begins matching the melody note and before long, he’s actually pressing the una corda pedal WHILE he plays the melody note instead of before.
If he can’t even differential while trying to flutter the una corda pedal, how can he achieve these gradations of sound?
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We may see people doing interesting things with their left foot and assume that it is having some effect on the sound. However, lots of pianists do interesting physical things. Whether or not the strange things they are doing are actually having any effect is arguable. In competitions, on Youtube, and especially among more publicly available concert venues, You’ll see people in concert fluttering their elbows out, rounding their hands dramatically and gracefully flipping their hands in the air, and lifting their hands high into the air and dropping them gracefully on the keys, and playing with strange positions because this school of thought or that ideology said you should do it…
…yet when we look at what a piano is actually capable of…the stuff they’re doing just doesn’t pass the smell test.
There are A LOT of schools of thought that support unusual physical things…and pianists convince themselves it’s accomplishing when it really isn’t.
_
As for Chiu and his claims…
…people who make Youtube channels need views. That’s how they get paid. And sometimes, saying basic, commonly known stuff doesn’t get the views, because people know it already.
So, instead, some of these YouTube Piano Experts give controversial opinions or fantastical claims with the intention of using that as bait to attract views.
If you had to ask me what this video is, I’d say it’s the former: a fantastic claim for views. However, I don’t see much logic or possibility behind any of it.
_
While I do believe that una corda doesn’t have to be all or nothing, AND that you can use it alternately while playing a piece and use it in quick succession to support melodies sometimes (although that requires a huge amount of new training to now develop perfect right and left foot independence) AND I also believe there may be a tone and timbre associated with half-una corda pedal…
…the idea that you can achieve anywhere near 7 gradations of sound seems unreasonable to me.
Taushi Let’s say, for instance, that your pedal moves 2 inches from its unpressed to pressed state
I think that's very optimistic. The soft pedal on my Steinway A has a total range (measured at the front) of about 1.9 centimetres. For the first 3 millimetres, the action doesn't move: it starts moving to the right when the pedal passes the 3 millimetre mark. That means I've got about 1.6 centimetres into which I would need to fit 7 gradations: hardly more than 2 millimetres (0.08 inches) for each gradation.
There's no way I'm going to be able to precisely put the pedal at one of these positions before playing. Here's the problem: with the left pedal, you can't correct anything after the note has been played. With the right pedal, you correct as you play, by ear: the very slightest lift of the pedal bringing the dampers just that little bit closer to the strings has an audible effect on the decay of the sound. This is how we control flutter and partial pedalling, by listening as we play.
MRC I think that's very optimistic. The soft pedal on my Steinway A has a total range (measured at the front) of about 1.9 centimetres. For the first 3 millimetres, the action doesn't move: it starts moving to the right when the pedal passes the 3 millimetre mark. That means I've got about 1.6 centimetres into which I would need to fit 7 gradations: hardly more than 2 millimetres (0.08 inches) for each gradation.
There's no way I'm going to be able to precisely put the pedal at one of these positions before playing. Here's the problem: with the left pedal, you can't correct anything after the note has been played. With the right pedal, you correct as you play, by ear: the very slightest lift of the pedal bringing the dampers just that little bit closer to the strings has an audible effect on the decay of the sound. This is how we control flutter and partial pedalling, by listening as we play.
Exactly, why I don’t see how any of the claims this person was making about being able to hear and accurate produce 7 gradations of sound on their instrument using the una corda pedal is possible.
I went to the Uni and I made some tests on an average piano (vs my home Bluthner). There was a small Yamaha grand available. So first the total displacement due to the left pedal was really small. Trying to find how many different intermediary positions I could reach and hear, really there was only one that would be different from either zero pedal or full pedal. It was really difficult to find the exact position because it was very narrow and so 9/10 either there was no effect or I would push by a tiny too much and would get the same effect as with the full pedal. Practically speaking trying to reach consistently and accurately that position, especially for quick passages of one or two notes was nearly impossible. In addition the effect was so minimal that it was in order of 2 or 3 vs what I could do with the fingers.
So practically speaking not much interest in using an intermediary position.
For the full pedal, the main issue is that the effect was to create a muted sound that was more pronounced in the bass than in the treble. So using surgically the pedal like Chiu demonstrates actually creates a strong contrast between the accompaniement and the melody. This is also what is audible in his video. The main result is that it makes the melody stand out but then these isolated notes tend to ring against a mush of muted sound instead of blending into an overall harmonically consistent context. I dont find that it works very well with his piano and this piece. It may have some applicability but it would be certainy dependant on the piano and the piece. All in all, it is probably a technique of rather limited usage.
Taushi I think Chiu's Claim about seven levels of UC pedaling are even more unreasonable than you explain. I look at it in terms of how far the action moves to the right when the UC pedal is completely depressed. I think it's at most a quarter of an inch but probably less. So if one divides that by 7 one gets one twenty eighth of an inch. The idea that one gets a different sound from the UC pedal by moving it 1/28th of an inch in some direction(even if that amount of control were possible) seems absurd to me.
Even more outlandish is the claim from one intermediate pianist on piano world that his piano was voiced to produce these seven levels. That would imply the tech adjusted the felt on each key so it had a different but consistent sound every 1/28th of an inch.
I don't really think Chiu's reference to surgical pedaling has anything to do with the seven levels and that was just some aside briefly mentioned at the beginning of the video. I think uses the term in the way he demonstrated on the Chopin etude i.e. to distinguish melody from accompaniment. If he meant the so called seven levels when he uses the term surgical pedaling, it would be completely nonsensical to make a video about "surgical pedaling" where he makes no attempt to use the UC pedal in any position other than completely on or off.
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