pianoloverus Absolute pitch is not necessary for audiation unless one thinks audiation means hearing a piece in one's head at the correct pitch.

No, the idea is that when you hear a piece in your head, it tends to be around the right key. With enough exposure, this sound memory develops. It is a distinct neurological mechanism from perfect pitch, and most good musicians I've seen have it. Like, I can sing a C and it's usually close to accurate, like within about a quarter tone. That kind of thing.

      Sophia But part of the discussion was about a passage you specifically quoted (and bolded) - one that is conveying an objectively wrong idea that absolute/perfect (and since he doesn't seem to distinguish between absolute and relative) even relative pitch is a non-negotiable necessary skill to learn piano. Absolute pitch isn't vital for anyone, and relative pitch is a "nice to have" that will develop all by itself (somewhat) in time anyway. Which personally makes me happy because that means I can spend my energy to learn more enjoyable things such as pretty pieces 😂

      Right. I bolded the sentence in a paragraph, instead of just quoting the sentence alone and and out of context. As I said in the post where I quoted that, that was the point where I stopped reading and starting skimming instead. It didn't occur to me that copy/pasting that quote in response to another post was going to cause such controversy. Haha. Live and learn. 🙂

      Sophia Oh I got that 🙂 I also get that the book may be very useful for some. Plus it's just fun to discuss these things and potentially even disagreeing, no arguments involved!

      Thank you for understanding, and I'm sorry for being abrupt about it. Now I'm going to go have some fun finishing up a lesson piece.

            Raw thoughts: I'm supposed to be working. 😃

            The "perfect pitch" idea felt to me, back then, like the mindset of a physicist used to dealing with absolute measures, and transferring that mindset into music, and how he understood his daughters' lessons with that good teacher.

            I cannot remember the details of what I read 17 years ago and what specifically got me to not read further than that page. It had something to do with memorizing a passage. I had, in fact, done a lot with mind, head, ears at that point because of the lack of musical training up then (i.e., basically none). I had done mostly standard diatonic type music. Fuer Elise was the first piano piece I had done as a kid because it was in the 1905 book my grandmother sent from Germany. That together with lots of Clementi, Kuhlau - all of them sonatinas generally. Ok, so:

            The sonatina will have a theme - little melody-thing, which asks and answers a question (how I felt it) - like a sentence or two part conversation. "What are you looking at?" "What am I looking at? - those birds!" It did a twiddle-diddle and suddenly there was a "new Do" (it had modulated), danced around there. Then more twiddle-diddles and the old conversation came up in the original key (old Do), "What are you looking at, pray tell?" What am I looking it? - those birds, those lovely birds!" This is how I had absorbed music as a child. A story tells itself in a logical way, and thus it is not hard to remember. Whatever this gentleman proposed seemed abstract, like memorizing a chain of numbers and letters in some code. I could not relate to it.

            Memorized music was also like an unfolding story where you have the key points. That camping trip has packing up stuff, traveling, arriving, setting up, the adventures while camping (maybe a key one), decamping, travel home. As I get to each point, that part "unfolds" - 'setting up' a bunch of things happened. This is also how I experienced music.

            Is starting with the mind, primarily, being in the mind, the best thing to (always) do? I don't think so. I was not aware of technique at the piano, what to physically do; how things worked, or even a real way of reading music. I believe that we need all aspects, and there is a back and forth. If you are strong in one area and have another one missing, then you want to push the missing part more. If Chang or his daughters mostly had technique, but had not memorized and done head-things before, then it would be important to balance that out. Thus "mind" might be important for him or them.

            Also, what you associate with and end up using will also work with your background and makeup. What I wrote described stories, literature, poetry. That's my world. I could add metaphor and imagery that springs up. The same thing may not work for someone else because they have a different mindset.

              Kaydia But part of the discussion was about a passage you specifically quoted (and bolded) - one that is conveying an objectively wrong idea that absolute/perfect (and since he doesn't seem to distinguish between absolute and relative) even relative pitch is a non-negotiable necessary skill to learn piano.

              Guys, what about the idea that imagining music in your head is a non-negotiable skill to learn piano? Thoughts? Because that's what is actually being said here. IMO.

                  ranjit Guys, what about the idea that imagining music in your head is a non-negotiable skill to learn piano? Thoughts? Because that's what is actually being said here. IMO.

                  We cross-posted. My post just above yours (written while you were writing yours) might address some of that, near the end, though maybe not in the same context.

                    ranjit To me, the age brackets look pretty accurate. Some of the things there aren't exactly correct, but those overall align with my experiences looking at learners from various age brackets. It runs counter to the notion that piano must be learned as a young child. Talent absolutely exists, and children too have likes and dislikes. But if someone 13-18 becomes very interested in piano playing and has some talent, they can definitely play at a high conservatory level or maybe even concert level. Above the age of 18 or so, it depends on the individual's specific case. I think it is very possible to learn the piano well in your 20s (I should certainly hope so!). I suspect the reason you don't see this all that much is because people tend to have other priorities at that age. 35+ in the vast majority of cases gets dicey when you're talking about playing Chopin Etudes and the rest of the virtuouso repertoire. (There are some "super-agers" who are exceptions to this but are very rare.) Overall, I agree with most of what he's saying in terms of the age brackets.

                    Do you have any experience with a person's natural physical "demeanor", such as them being stiff, ungraceful, clumsy, etc. as far as how it impacts the learning process? I can picture learning to be more graceful, for example, would be easier the younger you are. I'd be interested in any thoughts on this aspect.

                        Kaydia When I see graceful hands playing in videos I wish mine looked like that.

                        This is something that can be learned! Also, it's important to get to the point where a piece becomes second nature, so that you will be relaxed and not tense with effort. Have you thought about getting a teacher? I personally think that it's so important especially in the beginning stages, because they can help correct bad habits before they set in.

                            Kaydia

                            The reality is, as an older beginner you don't have the potential to become a world renowned virtuoso pianist merely because you probably lack the 40 years you'd need to get there.

                            On the other hand, many of us who did start learning as an older beginner understand that we're not going to get to a highly advanced level because time and age have stolen the necessary dexterity and flexibility from us. Because of that understanding we're usually content to be able to progress to a point where we can play music that's close in quality and content as what we enjoy listening to from professional musicians.

                            What I find interesting is that much of the music being produced for general public consumption, once you get out of the classical music realm, isn't much more advanced than what a late intermediate/early advanced player can perform without the music needing to be arranged. Depending on the system used for ratings, I think that's about a Level 5 or so.

                                Animisha After some detours, I ended up at the Piano Career Academy, where I had excellent lessons that focused very much on technique.

                                Kaydia I looked up the Piano Career Academy and watched her demonstrate a correct key attack. I'm going to give that a try and see how it goes. I'll check out more of her videos later. Thanks for mentioning it.

                                She talks a lot, all the time, but her lessons are excellent. Truly the best teacher for beginners that I have encountered.

                                *
                                ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                                  ranjit Guys, what about the idea that imagining music in your head is a non-negotiable skill to learn piano?

                                  I sure hope that’s only non-negotiable for those who aspire to become a concert pianist or similar level.

                                  The bar of entry to just learn piano (and become an average piano player) should be quite low. Maybe something like not tune-deaf, or hand can at least reach an octave?

                                    • Sophia

                                    • Post #59
                                    • Edited

                                    Kaydia I'm sorry for being abrupt about it.

                                    No worries at all!! I'm enjoying the discussion and I didn't think you were being abrupt at all, nor controversial.

                                    ranjit Guys, what about the idea that imagining music in your head is a non-negotiable skill to learn piano? Thoughts? Because that's what is actually being said here. IMO.

                                    Personally, I don't think it's a vital skill for beginners. I'd argue it's not even all that important for amateurs. I think the only non-negotiable skill is the desire to learn, and (arguably) finding pleasure in learning. Ok, and some willpower to not quit at the first hurdle (been there, done that, got the t-shirt) Everything else, in my opinion, is only "nice to have".

                                    Also I'd like to say that the above is just an opinion, I don't mind people disagreeing. I might even change my mind if it's convincing enough. Make me 😄

                                    As usual I am exaggerating. It will be fine. Whatever I'm playing - I am just trying not to massacre it completely. A bit of massacre is fine 🙂

                                          Here's what it boils down to, no matter what age you are.

                                          Sophia Personally, I don't think it's a vital skill for beginners. I'd argue it's not even all that important for amateurs.

                                          I think it's not important if you just want to play some tunes with the correct notes.

                                          But I think to have beautiful phrasing and tone you do have to be able to hear your intention in your head. And I think that should be a goal, even if you're a beginner or an amateur 🙂

                                            Kaydia Do you have any experience with a person's natural physical "demeanor", such as them being stiff, ungraceful, clumsy, etc. as far as how it impacts the learning process? I can picture learning to be more graceful, for example, would be easier the younger you are. I'd be interested in any thoughts on this aspect.

                                            I have my personal experiences, and then I know certain people I've tried to teach technical things to and discussed them with.

                                            I don't think I really felt a difference in terms of my ability to learn motor patterns with age. It might be there but I haven't really noticed it. I wasn't very sporty as a child and was self-conscious about it, so I made it a point to try and improve my coordination. Eventually, I ended up learning a lot of tricks to learn quicker and I feel like I probably learn new movements quicker than I would as a child. Maybe they don't persist as long, but that remains to be seen.

                                            My hands do look clumsy relative to that of a serious pianist. I might be contradicting myself here, but sometimes I do wonder if that is because of the age at which I started. But I find that once what needs to be improved upon is identified, I tend to be pretty good at assimilating it in the span of a few weeks. And it is getting considerably better.

                                            With older adults, it really depends on the individual. I have a feeling that the kind of feeling of comfort can be learned, but I usually see people reverting to old technical patterns. Many people find it really hard to relax the hand completely, which is really the starting point to an advanced technique.

                                            I wouldn't say it's not possible, because that's what people told me too and I don't think it is correct. I have heard of very occasional exceptions. But I think that if you really want to achieve a great technique as an adult, you have to really look beyond the obvious.

                                            Your starting point absolutely makes a difference. I would imagine that an elite athlete (depending on the sport) or video game player would have a massive advantage. Mental stamina is also very important, so being in an intellectually demanding profession would help too.

                                            My go-to has kind of been to "just do it", to sit down for a couple hours at a time, recording yourself/with a mirror, and feeling out different movements until it clicks.

                                                Sophia I missed it, you did say that! 🙂

                                                  ranjit pianoloverus Absolute pitch is not necessary for audiation unless one thinks audiation means hearing a piece in one's head at the correct pitch.

                                                  No, the idea is that when you hear a piece in your head, it tends to be around the right key. With enough exposure, this sound memory develops. It is a distinct neurological mechanism from perfect pitch, and most good musicians I've seen have it. Like, I can sing a C and it's usually close to accurate, like within about a quarter tone. That kind of thing.

                                                  You say "the idea" but you're talking about your personal idea of what that word means. It's not even clear what you're referring to when you use the phrase "the idea", but I assume it's audiation . Then you say audiation is distinct from perfect pitch, which is exactly what I was saying. But you begin your comment with a "no".

                                                  Just because you can find. a video about developing perfect pitch, you can't assume it's true. If Chang was correct about perfect pitch being important and so few people(including Juilliard students) have it but it's really possible to teach it, then why don't they teach perfect pitch at all the top conservatories?

                                                    ranjit Like, I can sing a C and it's usually close to accurate, like within about a quarter tone. That kind of thing.

                                                    I believe the perfect pitch is much more than that. In the NYT article I cited:

                                                    Dr. Profita, who studied the piano and violin at the Juilliard School before turning to medicine, realized he had perfect pitch at age 6. "The minute I hear a note, I know it," he said. "A single note takes on a real nature, like an object. An A is an A just the way a table is a table."

                                                    In addition, people with true perfect pitch can identify all notes in a chord without thinking. You can find video of Rick Beato demontrates this amazing ability with his son.

                                                    This is the kind of perfect pitch that is born naturally, and it cannot be attained by training.

                                                        Sophia Ok, and some willpower to not quit at the first hurdle (been there, done that, got the t-shirt)

                                                        Wait...!

                                                        There were T-shirts for this? I didn't even know there was a gift shop. 🤣