ranjit This is kind of true. Basically, he's talking about pitch memory. At an advanced level, it is when someone can recall, say, the opening note of Fur Elise, and figure out the other notes using relative pitch. I have experienced this on occasion but have never managed to be consistent with it. I know several people without perfect pitch who can do this.

Yes, that makes sense. I can do that somewhat with very, very simple tunes, like a nursery rhyme, or something popular like jingle bells. I'm sure it wouldn't be perfect, though.

    iternabe I am pretty sure absolute pitch is not necessary to play piano well. Maybe at the very top level for professionals, but not for the rest.

    That's why I skipped over that and started skimming. If I thought AP was necessary I might as well give up learning piano now. 😄

        ANDRE PREVIN has it; Willie Nelson does not. Nat King Cole had it; Vladimir Horowitz did not. About 10 percent of students at the Juilliard School of Music have it but most musicians don't.

        "It" is perfect or absolute pitch -- a cluster of abilities relating to identifying and recalling musical notes from memory, without hearing another note as a reference.

        Source: NYT - Perfect Pitch: The Key May Lie In the Genes

        Kaydia I'm so glad to hear other people say they also prefer simpler pieces. I've always felt "simple-minded" about it, like not sophisticated, or whatever.

        I think that many people share this love of simpler pieces, as they like tunes that they can hum along to, or simple songs that they can sing along to - maybe this explains the popularity of Country and Western music, which is often described as "three chords and the truth". That said, I do love some classical music, especially pieces by Tchaikovsky and Chopin, but I accept that I'll probably never be able to do them justice. Also, many wonderful classical pieces were composed for a full orchestra, so when they are played as solo pieces on the piano they can sound a bit incomplete.

        "Don't let's ask for the moon, we have the stars." (Final line from Now,Voyager, 1942)

          iternabe Also there is a compelling argument against the need of absolute pitch for musicians.

          Thanks for sharing that video. I just watched it and thought it was very interesting. I'd heard of the concept of quasi-absolute pitch, just didn't know it was called that.

            Sophia Interesting discussion you started here @Kaydia - but I dare say that for us (near) beginners (with less than a few years of learning behind us), none of this is relevant just yet. It doesn't mean we can't passionately discuss it all the same 😄

            For sure! Carry on! 🙂

              When I got a piano again after 35 years, having self-taught as a child, that PDF-book came to my attention in 2008 so 17 years ago. I did not yet have enough playing experience to judge the technical parts. (A few glances now, there are things I don't like.) I stopped reading when I got to a chapter on how to do something that is natural and easy for me, and his "how to" made it difficult and unpleasant. It may have been a part about memorizing, maybe with a melody or themes. I perceive these like sentences, as units. He had this string of pitches, or numerical patterns, or something. In that sense, his being a physicist seemed quite relative, because my mind said "He thinks like a physicist. I'm not a physicist. This is making music hard when it doesn't have to be hard."

              Fwiw, I have relative pitch. Some "perfect pitch" got awakened in an exercise I did once ---- by that I mean recognizing A as A rather than the 3rd degree note in a major key having its Tonic on F.

              I don't consider myself as having Perfect Pitch. In my younger days I can play easy songs on the recorder by ear mainly due to a good memory.

              I had 2 interesting experiences before & after the New Year. Before the Christmas break I practiced a Handel piece "Passacaille" (Passacaglia) with a strings ensemble playing violin. The first half of the music practice everybody had the instruments tuned to the standard A=440 pitch. The second half we all tuned to A=415 (the Baroque pitch) for authenticity. I found that when I practiced the piece at the standard pitch, my note accuracy fell to about 90%. I can still follow the music but would make more mistakes. When the tuning was at the lower pitch (415), my accuracy went up to 98% except for 1 or 2 careless misses. Someone with Perfect Pitch would learn songs in specific keys. A song that is not in a certain key would sound "wrong". My tuning was leaning towards someone with PP.

              After the New Year came across an old piano in a store. As expected the tuning was out. Played 2 pieces I was familiar with. Besides trying to avoid a key that was stuck, the playing was fine. My tuning was learning towards someone with relative pitch. I basically used 1 set of notes as reference for the next with muscle memory. A piano that is out-of-tune didn't bother me.

              Going back to the original age range data and our ability to play music I'm way pass the age of becoming a pro musician. Today I'm finding more older adults are getting into playing music as brain exercise.

              I'm with a group of adult pianists. Don't think any of my teacher's students in the retired age group even plan to take a conservatory exam. We're just playing for enjoyment as a hobby. Many of us are happy to play an easy version of a Christmas tune out of the Faber Christmas songbook.

              He's talking about musical memory that ends up being in the correct pitch. Technically, it is not absolute pitch and he isn't correct, but his overall point is alright.

              I have heard some excellent pianists praise the book. It is flawed, but even something flawed can be useful. And I think it has been useful for many, myself included.

              It is also a nice gesture of him to put out the book for free: http://www.pianopractice.org/

              I don't think he would mind discussing excerpts of his book. Many have done so.

              This thread was written when I was in my bed sleeping. I'll skip a lot of posts about the book, and return to this.

              Kaydia Based on my starting age of 65, the message is basically that time is short, and I should hurry up and learn so I can get to the music I want to play. As long as it's not too complicated and won't take too much time to learn. I guess it's a good thing that I like simpler pieces.

              I was maybe ten years younger than you were when I started to learn to play the piano, but I was heading (fast!) towards my second burn-out that was a hard blow to my brain. Many of its functions recovered, but memory / working memory did not. So even though my body was younger, my brain was not.
              In this situation, I chose to focus on learning to play as beautifully and expressively as I can. The last three words are very important, because I once was a child with very clumsy motor skills (both fine and gross), so playing beautifully and expressively does not come naturally to me. However, this is a goal that I can achieve - and can achieve every time I finish with a piece.
              After some detours, I ended up at the Piano Career Academy, where I had excellent lessons that focused very much on technique.

              Sgisela Anyways, for me, the joy of playing piano is (and I think always has been) much more about the process of practicing and working through things than it is about the end result.

              Rather shortly after I had bought my piano, I watched a documentary about a Swedish ballet dancer. She said: I love to practise. If you become a ballet dancer just because of the performances, it won't work. You spend so much more time practising than performing!
              I realised, for me to continue with the piano, I need to love practising. Otherwise, I may just as well sell the piano now. And I do, I love practising. Not every day, not every time, but I do.

              *
              ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                    Kaydia iternabe I am pretty sure absolute pitch is not necessary to play piano well. Maybe at the very top level for professionals, but not for the rest.

                    That's why I skipped over that and started skimming. If I thought AP was necessary I might as well give up learning piano now. 😄
                    AP is absolutely not necessary to play the piano well and absolutely not necessary for mental practice. While some terrific pianists have AP, others do not. I have not read a single article or book(and I've read many on memorization) where AP is even mentioned as an important tool for memorization or do mental practice probably because so few people have it.

                      Kaydia pianoloverus It's not necessary to have absolute pitch to do MP. Absolute pitch is probably helpful in memorizing a piece, but is rarely mentioned in articles about memorization probably because so few people have absolute pitch. Most people think absolute pitch cannot be learned but it's in born.

                      In addition I think the paragraph from the book you quoted is an example of his unclear and poor writing.
                      Absolute and relative pitch are very different but he uses them both in the same paragraph sometimes together, sometimes separately, switching back and forth.

                      On that page I linked, he explains why he believes AP is necessary. I'm not saying I agree with him. I don't have a desire to memorize my pieces, so it's not relevant to my learning process.
                      What is his so called "reason" for thinking AP is necessary? I didn't see it on what you quoted or maybe just thought what he said was nonsense. I

                      It's non even clear if he is distinguishing between mental practice and memorization in his writing. I think almost everything he writes, regardless of the quality of the content, is poorly written.

                        Kaydia pianoloverus It's not necessary to have absolute pitch to do MP. Absolute pitch is probably helpful in memorizing a piece, but is rarely mentioned in articles about memorization it was so few people have absolute pitch. Most people think absolute ditch cannot be learned but it's in born.

                        In addition I think the paragraph from the book you quoted is an example of his unclear and poor writing.
                        Absolute and relative pitch are very different but he uses them both in the same paragraph sometimes together, sometimes separately, switching back and forth.

                        On that page I linked, he explains why he believes AP is necessary. I'm not saying I agree with him. I don't have a desire to memorize my pieces, so it's not relevant to my learning process.

                            pianoloverus Excuse the previous posts as I have difficulty using the site when I try and quote something today even though things worked well yesterday.
                            AP is abosolutely not necessary to play the piano well or for mental practice. It's also not clear what Chang even means when he talks about mental practice. Is he just talking about memorization? In the numerous articles and books I've read about memorization, I don't think AP has even come up in the discussion probably because most people don't have it.
                            We have been discussing a few pages of the Chang book. I have looked at a few other pages and find "info" in almost every paragraph that I think is just plain wrong.

                                I haven't read the book so can't judge except what was quoted here 😊

                                What makes it unnecessary confusing is that he intertwines the terms elephant (absolute pitch) and giraffe (relative pitch) and then explains how elephants use their long necks to reach high into trees. You can argue oh well, they're both mammals and elephants can reach high due to their size, but that doesn't change the fact that the actual statement wasn't correct.

                                Again, no judgement on the rest of the book, but I can't say I'm very enticed from the few excerpts that were discussed here 😉

                                  Animisha I chose to focus on learning to play as beautifully and expressively as I can. The last three words are very important, because I once was a child with very clumsy motor skills (both fine and gross), so playing beautifully and expressively does not come naturally to me. However, this is a goal that I can achieve - and can achieve every time I finish with a piece.

                                  When I see graceful hands playing in videos I wish mine looked like that. It just doesn't come naturally to me. I think maybe I need to exaggerate my movements and fake it 'til I make it. 😄

                                  Animisha After some detours, I ended up at the Piano Career Academy, where I had excellent lessons that focused very much on technique.

                                  I looked up the Piano Career Academy and watched her demonstrate a correct key attack. I'm going to give that a try and see how it goes. I'll check out more of her videos later. Thanks for mentioning it.

                                        pianoloverus AP is abosolutely not necessary to play the piano well or for mental practice. It's also not clear what Chang even means when he talks about mental practice. Is he just talking about memorization?

                                        I don't know. I wasn't interested in the AP memorization aspect, so I didn't delve more in to it.

                                        pianoloverus In the numerous articles and books I've read about memorization, I don't think AP has even come up in the discussion probably because most people don't have it.

                                        Yes, that makes perfect sense.

                                        pianoloverus We have been discussing a few pages of the Chang book. I have looked at a few other pages and find "info" in almost every paragraph that I think is just plain wrong.

                                        I've only looked briefly at a few sections so far. When I read articles/books like this. I just pick and choose what makes sense to me, and what I think will work -or I think is worth trying- with my learning style.

                                        TO BE CLEAR: I WAS NOT PROMOTING THIS BOOK! I merely shared a section that I found interesting (the age groups), and then when I replied to the comment about the "nonsense" in the book, I said that's why I had stopped reading and started just skimming (because of the AP stuff). I feel like I'm having to argue that I agree with you.

                                              pianoloverus It's also not clear what Chang even means when he talks about mental practice.

                                              He is talking about audiation, and maybe visualization.

                                                  Sophia I wasn't promoting the book.