pianoloverus AP is abosolutely not necessary to play the piano well or for mental practice. It's also not clear what Chang even means when he talks about mental practice. Is he just talking about memorization?

I don't know. I wasn't interested in the AP memorization aspect, so I didn't delve more in to it.

pianoloverus In the numerous articles and books I've read about memorization, I don't think AP has even come up in the discussion probably because most people don't have it.

Yes, that makes perfect sense.

pianoloverus We have been discussing a few pages of the Chang book. I have looked at a few other pages and find "info" in almost every paragraph that I think is just plain wrong.

I've only looked briefly at a few sections so far. When I read articles/books like this. I just pick and choose what makes sense to me, and what I think will work -or I think is worth trying- with my learning style.

TO BE CLEAR: I WAS NOT PROMOTING THIS BOOK! I merely shared a section that I found interesting (the age groups), and then when I replied to the comment about the "nonsense" in the book, I said that's why I had stopped reading and started just skimming (because of the AP stuff). I feel like I'm having to argue that I agree with you.

pianoloverus It's also not clear what Chang even means when he talks about mental practice.

He is talking about audiation, and maybe visualization.

    Sophia I wasn't promoting the book.

      ranjit pianoloverus It's also not clear what Chang even means when he talks about mental practice.

      He is talking about audiation, and maybe visualization.

      My question was whether Chang is using mental practice to mean memorization practice or something else.

      Absolute pitch is not necessary for audiation unless one thinks audiation means hearing a piece in one's head at the correct pitch. Anyway, it's not necessary to hear a piece at the correct pitch to hear it in one's head even if one wants to use that for memorization. Not that I think that's a good or usually promoted way to memorize a piece. In fact, as I've stated several times on this thread, in all the discussions I've read about memorization mental practice is rarely if ever mentioned as one of the main approaches.
      If AP was necessary to be a good pianist or for memorization, then a huge percentage of good pianists would have to be reclassified since they don't have AP.

        To me, the age brackets look pretty accurate. Some of the things there aren't exactly correct, but those overall align with my experiences looking at learners from various age brackets. It runs counter to the notion that piano must be learned as a young child. Talent absolutely exists, and children too have likes and dislikes. But if someone 13-18 becomes very interested in piano playing and has some talent, they can definitely play at a high conservatory level or maybe even concert level. Above the age of 18 or so, it depends on the individual's specific case. I think it is very possible to learn the piano well in your 20s (I should certainly hope so!). I suspect the reason you don't see this all that much is because people tend to have other priorities at that age. 35+ in the vast majority of cases gets dicey when you're talking about playing Chopin Etudes and the rest of the virtuouso repertoire. (There are some "super-agers" who are exceptions to this but are very rare.) Overall, I agree with most of what he's saying in terms of the age brackets.

        Interestingly, Josef Hoffman also said in his book that he thought someone starting at 25 could become a concert pianist if they had talent.

          • Edited

          Kaydia I wasn't promoting the book.

          Oh I got that 🙂 I also get that the book may be very useful for some. Plus it's just fun to discuss these things and potentially even disagreeing, no arguments involved!

          But part of the discussion was about a passage you specifically quoted (and bolded) - one that is conveying an objectively wrong idea that absolute/perfect (and since he doesn't seem to distinguish between absolute and relative) even relative pitch is a non-negotiable necessary skill to learn piano. Absolute pitch isn't vital for anyone, and relative pitch is a "nice to have" that will develop all by itself (somewhat) in time anyway. Which personally makes me happy because that means I can spend my energy to learn more enjoyable things such as pretty pieces 😂

            pianoloverus Absolute pitch is not necessary for audiation unless one thinks audiation means hearing a piece in one's head at the correct pitch.

            No, the idea is that when you hear a piece in your head, it tends to be around the right key. With enough exposure, this sound memory develops. It is a distinct neurological mechanism from perfect pitch, and most good musicians I've seen have it. Like, I can sing a C and it's usually close to accurate, like within about a quarter tone. That kind of thing.

              Sophia But part of the discussion was about a passage you specifically quoted (and bolded) - one that is conveying an objectively wrong idea that absolute/perfect (and since he doesn't seem to distinguish between absolute and relative) even relative pitch is a non-negotiable necessary skill to learn piano. Absolute pitch isn't vital for anyone, and relative pitch is a "nice to have" that will develop all by itself (somewhat) in time anyway. Which personally makes me happy because that means I can spend my energy to learn more enjoyable things such as pretty pieces 😂

              Right. I bolded the sentence in a paragraph, instead of just quoting the sentence alone and and out of context. As I said in the post where I quoted that, that was the point where I stopped reading and starting skimming instead. It didn't occur to me that copy/pasting that quote in response to another post was going to cause such controversy. Haha. Live and learn. 🙂

              Sophia Oh I got that 🙂 I also get that the book may be very useful for some. Plus it's just fun to discuss these things and potentially even disagreeing, no arguments involved!

              Thank you for understanding, and I'm sorry for being abrupt about it. Now I'm going to go have some fun finishing up a lesson piece.

                Raw thoughts: I'm supposed to be working. 😃

                The "perfect pitch" idea felt to me, back then, like the mindset of a physicist used to dealing with absolute measures, and transferring that mindset into music, and how he understood his daughters' lessons with that good teacher.

                I cannot remember the details of what I read 17 years ago and what specifically got me to not read further than that page. It had something to do with memorizing a passage. I had, in fact, done a lot with mind, head, ears at that point because of the lack of musical training up then (i.e., basically none). I had done mostly standard diatonic type music. Fuer Elise was the first piano piece I had done as a kid because it was in the 1905 book my grandmother sent from Germany. That together with lots of Clementi, Kuhlau - all of them sonatinas generally. Ok, so:

                The sonatina will have a theme - little melody-thing, which asks and answers a question (how I felt it) - like a sentence or two part conversation. "What are you looking at?" "What am I looking at? - those birds!" It did a twiddle-diddle and suddenly there was a "new Do" (it had modulated), danced around there. Then more twiddle-diddles and the old conversation came up in the original key (old Do), "What are you looking at, pray tell?" What am I looking it? - those birds, those lovely birds!" This is how I had absorbed music as a child. A story tells itself in a logical way, and thus it is not hard to remember. Whatever this gentleman proposed seemed abstract, like memorizing a chain of numbers and letters in some code. I could not relate to it.

                Memorized music was also like an unfolding story where you have the key points. That camping trip has packing up stuff, traveling, arriving, setting up, the adventures while camping (maybe a key one), decamping, travel home. As I get to each point, that part "unfolds" - 'setting up' a bunch of things happened. This is also how I experienced music.

                Is starting with the mind, primarily, being in the mind, the best thing to (always) do? I don't think so. I was not aware of technique at the piano, what to physically do; how things worked, or even a real way of reading music. I believe that we need all aspects, and there is a back and forth. If you are strong in one area and have another one missing, then you want to push the missing part more. If Chang or his daughters mostly had technique, but had not memorized and done head-things before, then it would be important to balance that out. Thus "mind" might be important for him or them.

                Also, what you associate with and end up using will also work with your background and makeup. What I wrote described stories, literature, poetry. That's my world. I could add metaphor and imagery that springs up. The same thing may not work for someone else because they have a different mindset.

                  Kaydia But part of the discussion was about a passage you specifically quoted (and bolded) - one that is conveying an objectively wrong idea that absolute/perfect (and since he doesn't seem to distinguish between absolute and relative) even relative pitch is a non-negotiable necessary skill to learn piano.

                  Guys, what about the idea that imagining music in your head is a non-negotiable skill to learn piano? Thoughts? Because that's what is actually being said here. IMO.

                    ranjit Guys, what about the idea that imagining music in your head is a non-negotiable skill to learn piano? Thoughts? Because that's what is actually being said here. IMO.

                    We cross-posted. My post just above yours (written while you were writing yours) might address some of that, near the end, though maybe not in the same context.

                    ranjit To me, the age brackets look pretty accurate. Some of the things there aren't exactly correct, but those overall align with my experiences looking at learners from various age brackets. It runs counter to the notion that piano must be learned as a young child. Talent absolutely exists, and children too have likes and dislikes. But if someone 13-18 becomes very interested in piano playing and has some talent, they can definitely play at a high conservatory level or maybe even concert level. Above the age of 18 or so, it depends on the individual's specific case. I think it is very possible to learn the piano well in your 20s (I should certainly hope so!). I suspect the reason you don't see this all that much is because people tend to have other priorities at that age. 35+ in the vast majority of cases gets dicey when you're talking about playing Chopin Etudes and the rest of the virtuouso repertoire. (There are some "super-agers" who are exceptions to this but are very rare.) Overall, I agree with most of what he's saying in terms of the age brackets.

                    Do you have any experience with a person's natural physical "demeanor", such as them being stiff, ungraceful, clumsy, etc. as far as how it impacts the learning process? I can picture learning to be more graceful, for example, would be easier the younger you are. I'd be interested in any thoughts on this aspect.

                      Kaydia When I see graceful hands playing in videos I wish mine looked like that.

                      This is something that can be learned! Also, it's important to get to the point where a piece becomes second nature, so that you will be relaxed and not tense with effort. Have you thought about getting a teacher? I personally think that it's so important especially in the beginning stages, because they can help correct bad habits before they set in.

                        Kaydia

                        The reality is, as an older beginner you don't have the potential to become a world renowned virtuoso pianist merely because you probably lack the 40 years you'd need to get there.

                        On the other hand, many of us who did start learning as an older beginner understand that we're not going to get to a highly advanced level because time and age have stolen the necessary dexterity and flexibility from us. Because of that understanding we're usually content to be able to progress to a point where we can play music that's close in quality and content as what we enjoy listening to from professional musicians.

                        What I find interesting is that much of the music being produced for general public consumption, once you get out of the classical music realm, isn't much more advanced than what a late intermediate/early advanced player can perform without the music needing to be arranged. Depending on the system used for ratings, I think that's about a Level 5 or so.

                          Animisha After some detours, I ended up at the Piano Career Academy, where I had excellent lessons that focused very much on technique.

                          Kaydia I looked up the Piano Career Academy and watched her demonstrate a correct key attack. I'm going to give that a try and see how it goes. I'll check out more of her videos later. Thanks for mentioning it.

                          She talks a lot, all the time, but her lessons are excellent. Truly the best teacher for beginners that I have encountered.

                          *
                          ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                          ranjit Guys, what about the idea that imagining music in your head is a non-negotiable skill to learn piano?

                          I sure hope that’s only non-negotiable for those who aspire to become a concert pianist or similar level.

                          The bar of entry to just learn piano (and become an average piano player) should be quite low. Maybe something like not tune-deaf, or hand can at least reach an octave?

                          • Edited

                          Kaydia I'm sorry for being abrupt about it.

                          No worries at all!! I'm enjoying the discussion and I didn't think you were being abrupt at all, nor controversial.

                          ranjit Guys, what about the idea that imagining music in your head is a non-negotiable skill to learn piano? Thoughts? Because that's what is actually being said here. IMO.

                          Personally, I don't think it's a vital skill for beginners. I'd argue it's not even all that important for amateurs. I think the only non-negotiable skill is the desire to learn, and (arguably) finding pleasure in learning. Ok, and some willpower to not quit at the first hurdle (been there, done that, got the t-shirt) Everything else, in my opinion, is only "nice to have".

                          Also I'd like to say that the above is just an opinion, I don't mind people disagreeing. I might even change my mind if it's convincing enough. Make me 😄

                            Here's what it boils down to, no matter what age you are.

                            Sophia Personally, I don't think it's a vital skill for beginners. I'd argue it's not even all that important for amateurs.

                            I think it's not important if you just want to play some tunes with the correct notes.

                            But I think to have beautiful phrasing and tone you do have to be able to hear your intention in your head. And I think that should be a goal, even if you're a beginner or an amateur 🙂

                            Absolutely twocats 🙂

                            Sophia you need to be able to hear what it should sound in order to produce the sound that is needed

                            I said something to that effect, but of course as usual, you said it so much better 😃