Pallas But I've felt self-conscious about what's on my dream list, because my first teacher said my expectations were too high for her, and then dropped me.

That's just plain awful. On the other hand, admitting the expectations were to too high for her to teach required some self-knowledge and brutal honesty on her part. All in all, you're better off with a teacher who doesn't have those kinds of restrictions (like your current teacher). I also think that it was probably wise for you to keep your dreams to yourself until you and the new teacher got to know each other a little better. You had more time to reflect on your goal/dream pieces and the teacher had more time to assess your potential.

    Many struggle with the "beginner mindset'. Of course we need many years of lessons but the process can be fun & engaging than boring & repetitive.

    We need to have some expectations how far we can go and what we want to get out of learning an instrument. When my father retired, he wanted to pick up playing the accordion that he hadn't touched for years. As a self-learner he got himself a beginner book with songs like "Mary Had a Little Lamb", "Lightly Row". After a month he quit. He wasn't ready to spend years with a teacher. At the same time he had no expectations how far he could go or the pieces he would be playing.

    The 1 thing I find that is common in my family circle is that people who took music lessons tend to stick with the teacher's assigned repertoire. Even after many years of playing, they wouldn't go to a music store or online to find music on their own. Like before starting a new piece they wouldn't read through it on their own. 2 years ago I was at a gathering. 2 people who already reached ABRSM-8 violin & piano played some pieces for us. The parents said that these were the pieces they worked on with their teachers. Many years ago, 2 teens who were in Suzuki music played pieces for us assigned by their teachers to be appropriate for their level. The assigned pieces can be interesting. Even at an intermediate level, you should be able to learn pieces on your own.

    The first year I was self-learning and would find pieces at my level. Even after getting a teacher, I'd be playing half the pieces outside the assigned repertoire. When I was growing up, the people around had the attitute learning an instrument means moving up conservatory levels and taking exams every few years. After a decade of playing, my main focus is not fast progress but finding interesting pieces to play while improving techniques along the way. Finding & playing pieces that I like keep me going even without a teacher.

    I'm less concerned with people who passed their ABRSM-8 than being able to play some seasonal favorites at a gathering in December.

      thepianoplayer416

      I'm trying to achieve my grade 8 ABRSM now, though because of a house move it's taking a back seat for a while. My Teacher doesn't assign my repertoire. Largely I decide what I want to learn. Though I admit as a complete beginner that generally wouldn't be the case.

      In reality most people need a teacher to progress, especially with classical Piano. Without a teacher a lot (I hesitate to say most) of self learners either give-up or never progress beyond a certain point.

      Why wouldn't the people who had learnt their grade 8 violin and Piano pieces, or their Suzuki pieces play them? They've made a great deal of effort to reach a pretty high standard (in the case of grade 8) with their pieces, which they more than likely wouldn't have done on their own. I know I could never have passed my grade 7 with distinction last year without a Teacher. I play plenty of other things as well.

      Even in non-classical where I'm more self-taught, I've nevertheless had lessons with professional Jazz Pianists and attended numerous workshops and courses (Suffolk Jazz course the last 2 years).

      If you're content to play relatively simple pieces to the family at Christmas that's great and I applaud you. Playing in front of anyone takes nerve. However for me that would never be enough. I wanted to play in bands and do gigs from a young age, and more recently started taking Classical playing more seriously again.

      This probably all sounds horribly arrogant, but it's not, that is the reality of learning an instrument. I'm not particularly talented, but I have worked very very hard over the decades to get to where I am.

      I'm playing a gig tonight with one of the bands I'm in. We'll be doing 21 songs in a Pub. There won't be an Xmas song amongst them!

      Cheers


      Simon
      All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
      Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

          thepianoplayer416 After a month he quit. He wasn't ready to spend years with a teacher. At the same time he had no expectations how far he could go or the pieces he would be playing.

          Rather than saying he had no expectations of how far he could go, I'd say he had no understanding of the time and effort learning to play would entail.

          thepianoplayer416 Even after getting a teacher, I'd be playing half the pieces outside the assigned repertoire.

          Do you mean playing pieces you've already learned in addition to what you're learning for your lessons? Sure, no reason not to do that. But actually learning new pieces of comparable length and difficulty to what you're learning for your lesson? Who has the time? Or energy? I don't.

                Stub Do you mean playing pieces you've already learned in addition to what you're learning for your lessons? Sure, no reason not to do that. But actually learning new pieces of comparable length and difficulty to what you're learning for your lesson? Who has the time? Or energy? I don't.

                Hi Stub

                That's a very good point.
                In my case I'm lucky, I managed to retire at a relatively young age.

                Cheers

                Simon
                All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                • Stub replied to this.

                    Pallas I think it's probably very, very difficult to be a piano teacher. You have some students who don't care enough to do well, but also students who care so much that they get in their own way (that's me in a nutshell).

                    That could be why it is also difficult to be a student. Even among students who care deeply about learning, we all learn somewhat differently and not all teachers are able to cater to all learning styles (as seen in the example with your first teacher). Your second teacher seems great in trying to nudge you into seeing the learning process from another, less attached, point of view, whether you end up taking that to heart or perhaps find out that it's not exactly what works for you after all.

                    I find that learning difficult things, like piano playing, can also force and help us to get know ourselves better. To my understanding some researchers claim that where we stand on a scale from goal to process driven learning styles are inherent and relatively fixed, others that there is significant room for flexibility and change. Either way, it's good to be aware of the existing variety even as adult students and recognise where the teacher is coming from. Nobody nowadays seems to claim that people are either 100% goal driven or 100% autotelic so to some extent we can not only change external things like methods / repertoire and teachers but also our internal approaches. I'm grappling a bit with this as well – how much should we work within our current comfort zone and how much should we try to change? I'm mainly process driven myself, which many probably would deem lucky. As a child, I never had to be told to go practice my instrument or do my homework, I just did and usually enjoyed it and could immerse myself in the process. But there is also something appealing about having dream pieces, so that by the time we are able to play them we can look back and remember that once we thought these were extremely difficult pieces, almost unattainable. I'm not in that camp and don't have a singe dream piece for far into the future. Maybe I should?

                    Anyway, very interesting to follow this discussion and hear others' experiences!

                      A couple of thoughts:

                      On perseverance, I find what works for me so far is just to make sure I get my fingers on the keys every day. It does not matter how long or what I intend to play. The biggest hurdle seems to be just to get over to the piano and sit down. On days when I am not as motivated, I find once I sit down, start with some scales, often end up practicing as long or even longer than my more motivated days. The act of playing focuses my mind and piques my interest more than anything else.

                      On dream pieces, I don't have any. I just wait for what comes in my level. However, during my level one study, there is one piece that does feel a little more special to me. I also ended up spending disproportionally more time on that piece than all of the other ones. Looking back, that time spent feel quite inefficient. The reason is the left hand pattern involved is not something I was ready for. But for the love of the piece, I am driven to "master" the left hand - in retrospect, the approach did not work well, I could not "master" the technique just by repetition. The technique is more likely a number of small, discrete abilities that's better developed individually and then put together. This, to me, is the potential trap of trying pieces too far beyond my ability. I do have many pieces that I love to listen. At the same time, I am accepting that my knowledge is still so limited that I have no idea what's involved to make those piece sound as good as they should.

                      When you cut through all the noise, the reason one student continues, and one doesn't, is that some people are goal oriented and when those goals stop coming, they seek other mountains to climb. Meanwhile, other people are content to work every day at small successes which don't necessarily sparkle that much.

                      In the end it comes down to basic personality traits. The tragedy is that almost all teachers will choose the student who is easy to teach and then blame the student who drops out for the teacher's failure to keep them involved in the learning process.

                      Pallas

                      Hi Pallas

                      I'm with you on lack of RAM!

                      My on-going house move has affected my practising badly. I should be working on 4 pieces for the ABRSM grade 8 exam, and a few other things for a potential diploma, but at present everything is on hold because my house move has become a bit of a nightmare.

                      Normally the rest of my time is spent on non-classical. I've recently been asked to play Piano on Bohemian Rhapsody for a performance next year, so I've been spending a lot of time trying to put together a decent arrangement of that.

                      Cheers

                      Simon
                      All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                      Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                        Animisha I listened to the beginning of the video, with the fictional students Robert and John. I got irritated, because if you got yourself an enthusiastic music-lover teen who begs his parents for piano lessons, you are doing something very wrong as a teacher if you lose that students within ten weeks. ......

                        My impression is that she was giving some very simple common ideas. 1. The person with talent, free time, experience with other instruments, a fantastic piano will not necessarily do better than persons without those advantages. Here I think she is addressing everyone worrying they'll fail because they "don't have talent" etc. down the list. It's a bit overkill because in her examples, anyone with one of those advantages is the one who fails. 2. The (oft-repeated) mantra of don't run before you walk, steps etc. That would be the purpose.

                        I got turned off at the cello student part. If that fictitious student plays cello, had three years of lessons, and is in an orchestra, then by golly, you'd think she knows how to practice properly already! She'd not behave as described. Not considered is that someone who comes from another instrument needs to have that addressed by the teacher. Dynamics and articulation are created with the bow: piano hands do both notes and dynamics. A note must be continuously produced in one instrument, not the other. .......... The kid who loves jazz and was enthusiastic: were the fictitious lessons geared toward his interest? Are we going lockstep along a method book regardless of the student?

                        There is some truth to the points raised, but it's simplistic and leaves other things out. If it is encouraging to those who feel inferior / less likely to succeed than people with certain advantages, that part is a good message.

                          Simonb Hi Stub

                          That's a very good point.
                          In my case I'm lucky, I managed to retire at a relatively young age.

                          Same here, but I already spend about 2 hours a day practicing and that would mean adding another 2 hours if I spent half my time on non-lesson material. While in theory I have the time to do that, in practice (no pun intended!) I have other things I also enjoy spending my time and energy on (and some things I don't enjoy spending my time and energy on, but I have to whether I want to or not).

                          Please note that I'm talking about pieces that are at a similar difficulty and length as the pieces for my lessons. Sightreading practice or going back to easier (and probably shorter) pieces is probably a good thing. I rarely do it, probably because I'm putting all my time and energy into the pieces for my lesson. I want to have some progress to show at my next lesson, so my lesson pieces are what I work on during the week. It's a blessing and a curse--I'm getting to learn a lot of nice pieces and my teacher is constantly challenging me (not literally) to improve, but I don't have time to mess around at the piano very much. Other people do, and more power to them!

                            Pallas keystring There is some truth to the points raised, but it's simplistic and leaves other things out. If it is encouraging to those who feel inferior / less likely to succeed than people with certain advantages, that part is a good message.

                            Some of us need a gentle and nuanced tap on the shoulder to get a point. Others, me included, need a simple but emphatic brick to the head.😝

                            I think of videos such as this one as similar to a parable. A parable is a story. It didn't really happen. It's meant to illustrate some main point and shouldn't be overinterpreted--which parables often are. I see the main point of the video as not giving up. You don't have to have a whole lot of other things, but you do need perseverance.

                              Heh, well, I am living proof that quitting is a survivable option, because I have done it at least a few times now. This time it seems that continuing is the option that makes me happier than quitting sooo... yeah. That's where where it's at.

                              I'll be playing until that changes - though naturally my happiness level fluctuates from day to day, even from piece to piece because as long as I'm committed to going through the Alfred method book, I have to accept the fact that some pieces are going to be exceptionally dire. At least I'm now at a stage where it's more forgivable to skip/skimp over some pieces. And the blues course is a nice distraction too.

                              I have to say though that I found that video of "who will fail" particularly grating because I hardly agreed with any of her examples. Plus I don't think that quitting equals failing - that is almost insulting because there is no shame in finding out that one is not enjoying a certain hobby.

                              I'm probably thinking too deeply about this whole thing, because of course I agree with the bullet points of it not being a race, not a competition, and that it's important to enjoy what you're doing. I just don't agree that not quitting is necessarily the key to either success or happiness... I'd say that depends entirely on the person.

                              Ok this got kinda deep all of a sudden 😃 If you need a pep talk about not quitting, here is mine: don't quit. Piano is fun! And sooo rewarding. And it beats counting geraniums or brainlessly consuming soap operas on tv 😃 So. Don't quit!

                              As usual I am exaggerating. It will be fine. Whatever I'm playing - I am just trying not to massacre it completely. A bit of massacre is fine 🙂

                                Pallas Anyone who is happy every day seems suspicious to me.

                                I try to only pose the question of happiness with prior choices infrequently. If I would second guess myself and judge all decisions made by my previous self on a daily basis I would
                                1) not get much done
                                and
                                2)feel less free and not enjoy life as much.

                                Just sticking to the plan until it's not working for you any more takes away some stress.

                                  Sophia I am living proof that quitting is a survivable option, because I have done it at least a few times now.

                                  I've quit several hobbies as well and started others throughout life. I also took a more than 15 year hiatus from the clarinet, more due to life changes than having grown tired of it. But then I found out back in my thirties that I missed it too much so like you I know that restarting is also an option.

                                    Yup... exactly. I "quit" guitar twice as well, but any time anyone asks if I gave up on it, my usual reply is that I'm on an extended hiatus, but will go back to it eventually. Once I miss it enough, I will start again, as I did with piano. Other hobbies, let's say something like stamp collecting, I left behind me several decades ago and I know for a fact I'll never be back at it. That doesn't mean I was/am a failure at stamp collecting (ok I totally was, but that's beside the point), it just means I no longer found joy in it. I see no reason to shame anyone for quitting what they're not enjoying (which is what the word "fail" implies).

                                    This woman is basically screaming a message that quitting equals failing, and especially considering that I agree on the "be kind to yourself" message, I find that a more than a little harsh.

                                    As usual I am exaggerating. It will be fine. Whatever I'm playing - I am just trying not to massacre it completely. A bit of massacre is fine 🙂

                                      Quitting something that we realize no longer adds anything positive to life is a sign of wisdom and discernment in my book.

                                      Quitting because we judge ourselves too harshly is not the same, though.

                                      It's funny. I don't get discouraged by playing music badly like a beginner. The moment the music is played it's gone from existence and while it existed it was only a necessary step for learning and growth. However I've also tried to cultivate drawing and painting for some shorter stints but they never last. The "failures" in that instance are so tangible. The stack of sheets "wasted" on producing mediocre art lures out the critic in me and kills the joy. That's despite that I probably have somewhat more inborn talent for drawing than music, although neither is really my strength.

                                        The one slide that caught my attention was where she showed the succeed or fail "x-factor":

                                        When I listened to it, I thought yes, sure it's like you can finish the marathon, just don't stop running. You can swim across that lake, just don't stop swimming. You can climb that mountain, just don't stop climbing. So, in a way this "x-factor" sounded to me a bit obvious.

                                        I think one has to look a little deeper to understand why is someone choosing to stop playing piano/keyboard. Was it because of unrealistic expectations, maybe too much comparing with more proficient players, too many hobbies, etc.

                                        I also understand that if one chooses to stop playing because playing piano just does not give any joy any longer, then that is not necessarily a failure. It may actually be good, it depends on the unique situation.

                                        The other thing that comes to mind is that quitting is sometimes not quitting completely. May be it is just a temporary break and one discovers piano again sometime in the future. That can also happen.

                                        In summary I think that reasons for stopping to play piano can be fairly diverse as the circumstances of each person are unique.

                                        candela It's funny. I don't get discouraged by playing music badly like a beginner.

                                        Same here. In fact I embrace it and allow my inner child to thoroughly enjoy those simple tunes. I knew from a very young age that my aspirations were not to be a professional musician. I saw enough of that around me all day long and it wasn't the life for me. Luckily I was allowed that choice, which means I feel no resentment towards any instrument... and right now I'm loving the journey, wherever it takes me remains to be seen. As long as it remains fun, I keep at it!

                                        Pallas And I'm talking to you, Mr. High School Drama Teacher who called my enlisting into the Army a "huge waste of potential." Kiss my b*tt, Sir.

                                        High Five! Let me direct a similar message to my kindergarten teacher, who smugly informed my parents (after hearing my singing in class) that I'd never be a Maria Callas. Phooey to you, Ms Whatever-Your-Name-Was!

                                        As usual I am exaggerating. It will be fine. Whatever I'm playing - I am just trying not to massacre it completely. A bit of massacre is fine 🙂