Pallas to love the piano without any expectations or preconceived notions about what I would (or should) get out of it.

Yes, this is how I approach it -- most of the time! Obviously I must have some expectations, or else giving a subpart recital performance wouldn't result in such feelings of disappointment.

Pallas that's no reason not to enjoy the fruit that hangs within my reach

I love this way of putting it! Indeed, there are many, many pieces within my playing ability, imagine if, rather than enjoying those pieces, I only pined for the pieces beyond my reach. That would be sad.

thepianoplayer416 After someone decides to quit music, it's unlikely he/she would return later.

Actually, I don't think this is true. A lot of adults who play piano are returnees, who quit as children. Others play for a while, life gets in the way, and they come back to it when life gets out of the way.

        Pallas being too attached is where choking comes from

        I don't think this is where my performance struggles come from.... I can't articulate why, but ... that's just my gut feeling, for me personally....

        Pallas there's a balance to be struck between being engaged and focused and devoted and also staying loose and open that seems very beautiful, like tai chi.

        That's a nice comparison!

            I think I've posted this before, and it seems to be relevant to this topic.

            Pallas Have you preemptively decided you'll never be "good enough" to play those 10 pieces, and threw the scores away entirely, or is it more that you're focused on the next piece you can play now, and if you trip and fall into one of those 10 pieces one day in the future, then great? I'm hoping for the 2nd one to feel less alone.

            Neither! They were mostly Alfred AIO pieces that I liked and thought I wanted to keep playing, but I was soon(ish) past those and on to even nicer pieces.

            I have recently gone back to several pieces I worked on a few years ago and put aside because I felt I'd gone about as far as I could with them. My teacher was fine with me taking them up again. The first one was Debussy's Arabesque I, which this time around came out much, much better. The other, Chopin's Nocturne in C#minor (posthumous), I've just restarted, but already it feels much more do-able. There are a couple of other pieces I'd like to resurrect for lessons. We usually think of goals as something to aspire to in the future--maybe what I'm describing is backwards-looking goals. 😀

              Pallas Have you preemptively decided you'll never be "good enough" to play those 10 pieces, and threw the scores away entirely, or is it more that you're focused on the next piece you can play now, and if you trip and fall into one of those 10 pieces one day in the future, then great? I'm hoping for the 2nd one to feel less alone. 🤣

              I know you're asking Stub but I wanted to chime in because I have had a similar experience. You might be surprised but for me it has been the complete opposite of your first option. I made so much progress that the pieces that seemed like dream pieces initially now feel too easy and even boring. 🤣 It's not that I scoff at pieces that are easy but I have played many of my previous dream pieces over the years and my horizons have expanded several times. What felt impossible is now within reach and what sounded impressive then doesn't cut it anymore.

              It's nice to have something to aspire but be open to changing your goals as you develop and don't dismiss anything as an impossibility. You may be surprised.

              And I agree that the most important thing is "don't quit".

                Pallas
                "...The More Loving One..."
                In other words, "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade!"
                (Actually, I like lemons, but I get the point.)

                Since there is so much piano music available at all different levels, perhaps one way of approaching it is to try a bunch of different pieces, and continue with the ones that are most interesting.

                  Pallas But I've felt self-conscious about what's on my dream list, because my first teacher said my expectations were too high for her, and then dropped me.

                  That's just plain awful. On the other hand, admitting the expectations were to too high for her to teach required some self-knowledge and brutal honesty on her part. All in all, you're better off with a teacher who doesn't have those kinds of restrictions (like your current teacher). I also think that it was probably wise for you to keep your dreams to yourself until you and the new teacher got to know each other a little better. You had more time to reflect on your goal/dream pieces and the teacher had more time to assess your potential.

                    Many struggle with the "beginner mindset'. Of course we need many years of lessons but the process can be fun & engaging than boring & repetitive.

                    We need to have some expectations how far we can go and what we want to get out of learning an instrument. When my father retired, he wanted to pick up playing the accordion that he hadn't touched for years. As a self-learner he got himself a beginner book with songs like "Mary Had a Little Lamb", "Lightly Row". After a month he quit. He wasn't ready to spend years with a teacher. At the same time he had no expectations how far he could go or the pieces he would be playing.

                    The 1 thing I find that is common in my family circle is that people who took music lessons tend to stick with the teacher's assigned repertoire. Even after many years of playing, they wouldn't go to a music store or online to find music on their own. Like before starting a new piece they wouldn't read through it on their own. 2 years ago I was at a gathering. 2 people who already reached ABRSM-8 violin & piano played some pieces for us. The parents said that these were the pieces they worked on with their teachers. Many years ago, 2 teens who were in Suzuki music played pieces for us assigned by their teachers to be appropriate for their level. The assigned pieces can be interesting. Even at an intermediate level, you should be able to learn pieces on your own.

                    The first year I was self-learning and would find pieces at my level. Even after getting a teacher, I'd be playing half the pieces outside the assigned repertoire. When I was growing up, the people around had the attitute learning an instrument means moving up conservatory levels and taking exams every few years. After a decade of playing, my main focus is not fast progress but finding interesting pieces to play while improving techniques along the way. Finding & playing pieces that I like keep me going even without a teacher.

                    I'm less concerned with people who passed their ABRSM-8 than being able to play some seasonal favorites at a gathering in December.

                      thepianoplayer416

                      I'm trying to achieve my grade 8 ABRSM now, though because of a house move it's taking a back seat for a while. My Teacher doesn't assign my repertoire. Largely I decide what I want to learn. Though I admit as a complete beginner that generally wouldn't be the case.

                      In reality most people need a teacher to progress, especially with classical Piano. Without a teacher a lot (I hesitate to say most) of self learners either give-up or never progress beyond a certain point.

                      Why wouldn't the people who had learnt their grade 8 violin and Piano pieces, or their Suzuki pieces play them? They've made a great deal of effort to reach a pretty high standard (in the case of grade 8) with their pieces, which they more than likely wouldn't have done on their own. I know I could never have passed my grade 7 with distinction last year without a Teacher. I play plenty of other things as well.

                      Even in non-classical where I'm more self-taught, I've nevertheless had lessons with professional Jazz Pianists and attended numerous workshops and courses (Suffolk Jazz course the last 2 years).

                      If you're content to play relatively simple pieces to the family at Christmas that's great and I applaud you. Playing in front of anyone takes nerve. However for me that would never be enough. I wanted to play in bands and do gigs from a young age, and more recently started taking Classical playing more seriously again.

                      This probably all sounds horribly arrogant, but it's not, that is the reality of learning an instrument. I'm not particularly talented, but I have worked very very hard over the decades to get to where I am.

                      I'm playing a gig tonight with one of the bands I'm in. We'll be doing 21 songs in a Pub. There won't be an Xmas song amongst them!

                      Cheers


                      Simon
                      All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                      Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                          thepianoplayer416 After a month he quit. He wasn't ready to spend years with a teacher. At the same time he had no expectations how far he could go or the pieces he would be playing.

                          Rather than saying he had no expectations of how far he could go, I'd say he had no understanding of the time and effort learning to play would entail.

                          thepianoplayer416 Even after getting a teacher, I'd be playing half the pieces outside the assigned repertoire.

                          Do you mean playing pieces you've already learned in addition to what you're learning for your lessons? Sure, no reason not to do that. But actually learning new pieces of comparable length and difficulty to what you're learning for your lesson? Who has the time? Or energy? I don't.

                                Stub Do you mean playing pieces you've already learned in addition to what you're learning for your lessons? Sure, no reason not to do that. But actually learning new pieces of comparable length and difficulty to what you're learning for your lesson? Who has the time? Or energy? I don't.

                                Hi Stub

                                That's a very good point.
                                In my case I'm lucky, I managed to retire at a relatively young age.

                                Cheers

                                Simon
                                All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                                Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                                • Stub replied to this.

                                    Pallas I think it's probably very, very difficult to be a piano teacher. You have some students who don't care enough to do well, but also students who care so much that they get in their own way (that's me in a nutshell).

                                    That could be why it is also difficult to be a student. Even among students who care deeply about learning, we all learn somewhat differently and not all teachers are able to cater to all learning styles (as seen in the example with your first teacher). Your second teacher seems great in trying to nudge you into seeing the learning process from another, less attached, point of view, whether you end up taking that to heart or perhaps find out that it's not exactly what works for you after all.

                                    I find that learning difficult things, like piano playing, can also force and help us to get know ourselves better. To my understanding some researchers claim that where we stand on a scale from goal to process driven learning styles are inherent and relatively fixed, others that there is significant room for flexibility and change. Either way, it's good to be aware of the existing variety even as adult students and recognise where the teacher is coming from. Nobody nowadays seems to claim that people are either 100% goal driven or 100% autotelic so to some extent we can not only change external things like methods / repertoire and teachers but also our internal approaches. I'm grappling a bit with this as well – how much should we work within our current comfort zone and how much should we try to change? I'm mainly process driven myself, which many probably would deem lucky. As a child, I never had to be told to go practice my instrument or do my homework, I just did and usually enjoyed it and could immerse myself in the process. But there is also something appealing about having dream pieces, so that by the time we are able to play them we can look back and remember that once we thought these were extremely difficult pieces, almost unattainable. I'm not in that camp and don't have a singe dream piece for far into the future. Maybe I should?

                                    Anyway, very interesting to follow this discussion and hear others' experiences!

                                      A couple of thoughts:

                                      On perseverance, I find what works for me so far is just to make sure I get my fingers on the keys every day. It does not matter how long or what I intend to play. The biggest hurdle seems to be just to get over to the piano and sit down. On days when I am not as motivated, I find once I sit down, start with some scales, often end up practicing as long or even longer than my more motivated days. The act of playing focuses my mind and piques my interest more than anything else.

                                      On dream pieces, I don't have any. I just wait for what comes in my level. However, during my level one study, there is one piece that does feel a little more special to me. I also ended up spending disproportionally more time on that piece than all of the other ones. Looking back, that time spent feel quite inefficient. The reason is the left hand pattern involved is not something I was ready for. But for the love of the piece, I am driven to "master" the left hand - in retrospect, the approach did not work well, I could not "master" the technique just by repetition. The technique is more likely a number of small, discrete abilities that's better developed individually and then put together. This, to me, is the potential trap of trying pieces too far beyond my ability. I do have many pieces that I love to listen. At the same time, I am accepting that my knowledge is still so limited that I have no idea what's involved to make those piece sound as good as they should.

                                      When you cut through all the noise, the reason one student continues, and one doesn't, is that some people are goal oriented and when those goals stop coming, they seek other mountains to climb. Meanwhile, other people are content to work every day at small successes which don't necessarily sparkle that much.

                                      In the end it comes down to basic personality traits. The tragedy is that almost all teachers will choose the student who is easy to teach and then blame the student who drops out for the teacher's failure to keep them involved in the learning process.

                                      Pallas

                                      Hi Pallas

                                      I'm with you on lack of RAM!

                                      My on-going house move has affected my practising badly. I should be working on 4 pieces for the ABRSM grade 8 exam, and a few other things for a potential diploma, but at present everything is on hold because my house move has become a bit of a nightmare.

                                      Normally the rest of my time is spent on non-classical. I've recently been asked to play Piano on Bohemian Rhapsody for a performance next year, so I've been spending a lot of time trying to put together a decent arrangement of that.

                                      Cheers

                                      Simon
                                      All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
                                      Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

                                        Animisha I listened to the beginning of the video, with the fictional students Robert and John. I got irritated, because if you got yourself an enthusiastic music-lover teen who begs his parents for piano lessons, you are doing something very wrong as a teacher if you lose that students within ten weeks. ......

                                        My impression is that she was giving some very simple common ideas. 1. The person with talent, free time, experience with other instruments, a fantastic piano will not necessarily do better than persons without those advantages. Here I think she is addressing everyone worrying they'll fail because they "don't have talent" etc. down the list. It's a bit overkill because in her examples, anyone with one of those advantages is the one who fails. 2. The (oft-repeated) mantra of don't run before you walk, steps etc. That would be the purpose.

                                        I got turned off at the cello student part. If that fictitious student plays cello, had three years of lessons, and is in an orchestra, then by golly, you'd think she knows how to practice properly already! She'd not behave as described. Not considered is that someone who comes from another instrument needs to have that addressed by the teacher. Dynamics and articulation are created with the bow: piano hands do both notes and dynamics. A note must be continuously produced in one instrument, not the other. .......... The kid who loves jazz and was enthusiastic: were the fictitious lessons geared toward his interest? Are we going lockstep along a method book regardless of the student?

                                        There is some truth to the points raised, but it's simplistic and leaves other things out. If it is encouraging to those who feel inferior / less likely to succeed than people with certain advantages, that part is a good message.

                                          Simonb Hi Stub

                                          That's a very good point.
                                          In my case I'm lucky, I managed to retire at a relatively young age.

                                          Same here, but I already spend about 2 hours a day practicing and that would mean adding another 2 hours if I spent half my time on non-lesson material. While in theory I have the time to do that, in practice (no pun intended!) I have other things I also enjoy spending my time and energy on (and some things I don't enjoy spending my time and energy on, but I have to whether I want to or not).

                                          Please note that I'm talking about pieces that are at a similar difficulty and length as the pieces for my lessons. Sightreading practice or going back to easier (and probably shorter) pieces is probably a good thing. I rarely do it, probably because I'm putting all my time and energy into the pieces for my lesson. I want to have some progress to show at my next lesson, so my lesson pieces are what I work on during the week. It's a blessing and a curse--I'm getting to learn a lot of nice pieces and my teacher is constantly challenging me (not literally) to improve, but I don't have time to mess around at the piano very much. Other people do, and more power to them!

                                            Pallas keystring There is some truth to the points raised, but it's simplistic and leaves other things out. If it is encouraging to those who feel inferior / less likely to succeed than people with certain advantages, that part is a good message.

                                            Some of us need a gentle and nuanced tap on the shoulder to get a point. Others, me included, need a simple but emphatic brick to the head.😝

                                            I think of videos such as this one as similar to a parable. A parable is a story. It didn't really happen. It's meant to illustrate some main point and shouldn't be overinterpreted--which parables often are. I see the main point of the video as not giving up. You don't have to have a whole lot of other things, but you do need perseverance.

                                              Heh, well, I am living proof that quitting is a survivable option, because I have done it at least a few times now. This time it seems that continuing is the option that makes me happier than quitting sooo... yeah. That's where where it's at.

                                              I'll be playing until that changes - though naturally my happiness level fluctuates from day to day, even from piece to piece because as long as I'm committed to going through the Alfred method book, I have to accept the fact that some pieces are going to be exceptionally dire. At least I'm now at a stage where it's more forgivable to skip/skimp over some pieces. And the blues course is a nice distraction too.

                                              I have to say though that I found that video of "who will fail" particularly grating because I hardly agreed with any of her examples. Plus I don't think that quitting equals failing - that is almost insulting because there is no shame in finding out that one is not enjoying a certain hobby.

                                              I'm probably thinking too deeply about this whole thing, because of course I agree with the bullet points of it not being a race, not a competition, and that it's important to enjoy what you're doing. I just don't agree that not quitting is necessarily the key to either success or happiness... I'd say that depends entirely on the person.

                                              Ok this got kinda deep all of a sudden 😃 If you need a pep talk about not quitting, here is mine: don't quit. Piano is fun! And sooo rewarding. And it beats counting geraniums or brainlessly consuming soap operas on tv 😃 So. Don't quit!

                                              As usual I am exaggerating. It will be fine. Whatever I'm playing - I am just trying not to massacre it completely. A bit of massacre is fine 🙂