"Success" = Don't Compare, Don't Quit

Pallas · 2024-12-10T17:10:26+00:00

I'm back from vacation and trying to find a way to entertain myself while stuffing steel wool into the mouse holes in my ancient house, to disinvite the rode...

ShiroKuro

I look forward to watching the video, but without knowing anything else, I have to say that this:

Pallas enjoying the process, being kind to yourself, and above all, not quitting is the key to success ahem, happiness.

is SO so important!!! All of it, the process part, the kind part, and, as you say, above all, not quitting!!!
🙂

thepianoplayer416

Luckily as an adult learner I don't need to compare myself to people in the family. Some relatives took piano playing at a young age and quit years ago. Even playing an easy arrangement of a Christmas tune at a family gathering would get attention.

It's important to keep going even when you encounter roadblocks along the way. Being successful doesn't mean learning & playing very difficult pieces. Personally music is for stress relief more than anything else. In the beginning the pieces are going to be very basic, some even boring. When you get to a higher level, the music library opens up.

Over the years I've seen people in the family quit playing. Music has become technical exercises. Going to lessons had become a routine that nobody looked forward to. Parents often enroll kids into music lessons. Some people like myself don't particularly like music lessons but found comfort playing music nonetheless.

Stub

Not giving up. The uptown term is perseverance. I wish I were as talented at piano as I am at perseverance. 😀

Talent, a decent piano, goals, time for practice--all nice to have, but not a guarantee of success. In the spirit of grenade throwing, I'm going to single out goals as not really that important for success, as long as you have learning how to play the piano properly as the uber goal.

One's teacher needs to not give up as well, which is mentioned in the video near the end.

Animisha

I listened to the beginning of the video, with the fictional students Robert and John. I got irritated, because if you got yourself an enthusiastic music-lover teen who begs his parents for piano lessons, you are doing something very wrong as a teacher if you lose that students within ten weeks. I have to admit, I didn't listen to the rest of the video.
Instead, I stick to Pallas' words:

Pallas enjoying the process, being kind to yourself, and above all, not quitting is the key to success ahem, happiness.

keystring

Animisha I listened to the beginning of the video, with the fictional students Robert and John. I got irritated, because if you got yourself an enthusiastic music-lover teen who begs his parents for piano lessons, you are doing something very wrong as a teacher if you lose that students within ten weeks. ......

My impression is that she was giving some very simple common ideas. 1. The person with talent, free time, experience with other instruments, a fantastic piano will not necessarily do better than persons without those advantages. Here I think she is addressing everyone worrying they'll fail because they "don't have talent" etc. down the list. It's a bit overkill because in her examples, anyone with one of those advantages is the one who fails. 2. The (oft-repeated) mantra of don't run before you walk, steps etc. That would be the purpose.

I got turned off at the cello student part. If that fictitious student plays cello, had three years of lessons, and is in an orchestra, then by golly, you'd think she knows how to practice properly already! She'd not behave as described. Not considered is that someone who comes from another instrument needs to have that addressed by the teacher. Dynamics and articulation are created with the bow: piano hands do both notes and dynamics. A note must be continuously produced in one instrument, not the other. .......... The kid who loves jazz and was enthusiastic: were the fictitious lessons geared toward his interest? Are we going lockstep along a method book regardless of the student?

There is some truth to the points raised, but it's simplistic and leaves other things out. If it is encouraging to those who feel inferior / less likely to succeed than people with certain advantages, that part is a good message.

candela

For me, who bought a piano and started to learn during the pandemic when the orchestra rehearsals were cancelled for an extended period of time, I think one reason I'm still at it well into the fourth year is that my prime motivation was never the long term goals but the quality of life playing adds right now. Improvement in skill is almost a byproduct. I'm not saying that I'm always longing for sitting down to practice. Actually, usually I do, but some days it's just something I do because I know that on a higher level I want to, even if my current emotions say otherwise, if that makes sense. Neither am I saying that I practice aimlessly, far from it, or that I don't strive to improve during my practice. Being self-directed, I regularly try to assess where I am and what's a good direction and method to proceed for the coming months or so.

What I'm trying to get at is that my definition of success is not to reach a predefined level of virtuosity. That will always be a moving, unreachable target anyway. But when I'm at the piano only that moment and that particular practice session exist and I'm trying to choose to enjoy it. It's a bubble where other concerns of life don't matter. Apart from being absorbed by the music, the act of learning and practicing in itself is what draws me back, not the improvements in ability it leads to. I even try to embrace the struggles and feelings of sometimes being really bad at what I'm doing as welcome life lessons. And I think the music and practice affect my brain and mind in a way that spills over in a positive way on other areas of life, though obviously there's no control for how an alternative present without piano practice would have been. All that's reason and success enough for me to continue practicing.

Stub

Pallas I would love to hear more!

I have, within reach of the chair I'm sitting in, a (paper) notebook with the titles of about ten pieces I wanted to learn and/or keep in my repertoire, written about two years in. A goal, as it were. I don't play any of them. I can see how having a goal of playing a certain piece might be sufficient to keep someone playing, but not me. Maybe I'm just too fickle, but, heck, learning to play the piano is such a long term process. The horizon is constantly moving. Nowadays I take more of a "let's see what happens" approach.

candela Apart from being absorbed by the music, the act of learning and practicing in itself is what draws me back, not the improvements in ability it leads to. I even try to embrace the struggles and feelings of sometimes being really bad at what I'm doing as welcome life lessons. And I think the music and practice affect my brain and mind in a way that spills over in a positive way on other areas of life, though obviously there's no control for how an alternative present without piano practice would have been. All that's reason and success enough for me to continue practicing.

I think this captures why I keep practicing. Discipline, persistence, the ability to weather set-backs and plateaus--all these teach life skills. And I get to hear and play some wonderful music!

thepianoplayer416

Don't like to generalize. Think many people who quit music were enrolled by their parents at a young age. They were pushed to practice like exercises. After someone decides to quit music, it's unlikely he/she would return later.

I got into music in high school around age 17 when my sister asked for violin lessons. Coming from a non-musical family, mom & dad were ok with music lessons but not pushy. Neither of us knew anything about the instrument. There was 1 person in the neighborhood where we lived who supposedly had violin lessons. I navigated my way in a haphazard way.

When I bought my keyboard 2 decades later, I had some experience reading music and learned enough music theory from the violin teacher. Learning is still a struggle but not as much as before. Being an adult learner I pay for my own lessons. With online info to supplement my learning at least I'm not driving without a roadmap.

Even if I'm not making a lot of progress now, I have collected a library of pieces to keep me playing for years so no reason to quit.

Stub

thepianoplayer416 Don't like to generalize. Think many people who quit music were enrolled by their parents at a young age. They were pushed to practice like exercises. After someone decides to quit music, it's unlikely he/she would return later.

Certainly there are young children with no interest in the piano who have parents that persist in making them take lessons, but there are also many young children who need a parent's oversight to practice until they reach an age where they have sufficient self control and discipline such that they no longer need a parent's prompting. And there are many adults playing today who quit lessons as a child and came back to it later (and often wish they hadn't stopped lessons).

ShiroKuro

Pallas to love the piano without any expectations or preconceived notions about what I would (or should) get out of it.

Yes, this is how I approach it -- most of the time! Obviously I must have some expectations, or else giving a subpart recital performance wouldn't result in such feelings of disappointment.

Pallas that's no reason not to enjoy the fruit that hangs within my reach

I love this way of putting it! Indeed, there are many, many pieces within my playing ability, imagine if, rather than enjoying those pieces, I only pined for the pieces beyond my reach. That would be sad.

thepianoplayer416 After someone decides to quit music, it's unlikely he/she would return later.

Actually, I don't think this is true. A lot of adults who play piano are returnees, who quit as children. Others play for a while, life gets in the way, and they come back to it when life gets out of the way.

ShiroKuro

Pallas being too attached is where choking comes from

I don't think this is where my performance struggles come from.... I can't articulate why, but ... that's just my gut feeling, for me personally....

Pallas there's a balance to be struck between being engaged and focused and devoted and also staying loose and open that seems very beautiful, like tai chi.

That's a nice comparison!

iternabe

I think I've posted this before, and it seems to be relevant to this topic.

Stub

Pallas Have you preemptively decided you'll never be "good enough" to play those 10 pieces, and threw the scores away entirely, or is it more that you're focused on the next piece you can play now, and if you trip and fall into one of those 10 pieces one day in the future, then great? I'm hoping for the 2nd one to feel less alone.

Neither! They were mostly Alfred AIO pieces that I liked and thought I wanted to keep playing, but I was soon(ish) past those and on to even nicer pieces.

I have recently gone back to several pieces I worked on a few years ago and put aside because I felt I'd gone about as far as I could with them. My teacher was fine with me taking them up again. The first one was Debussy's Arabesque I, which this time around came out much, much better. The other, Chopin's Nocturne in C#minor (posthumous), I've just restarted, but already it feels much more do-able. There are a couple of other pieces I'd like to resurrect for lessons. We usually think of goals as something to aspire to in the future--maybe what I'm describing is backwards-looking goals. 😀

BartK

Pallas Have you preemptively decided you'll never be "good enough" to play those 10 pieces, and threw the scores away entirely, or is it more that you're focused on the next piece you can play now, and if you trip and fall into one of those 10 pieces one day in the future, then great? I'm hoping for the 2nd one to feel less alone. 🤣

I know you're asking Stub but I wanted to chime in because I have had a similar experience. You might be surprised but for me it has been the complete opposite of your first option. I made so much progress that the pieces that seemed like dream pieces initially now feel too easy and even boring. 🤣 It's not that I scoff at pieces that are easy but I have played many of my previous dream pieces over the years and my horizons have expanded several times. What felt impossible is now within reach and what sounded impressive then doesn't cut it anymore.

It's nice to have something to aspire but be open to changing your goals as you develop and don't dismiss anything as an impossibility. You may be surprised.

And I agree that the most important thing is "don't quit".

pseudonym58

Pallas
"...The More Loving One..."
In other words, "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade!"
(Actually, I like lemons, but I get the point.)

Since there is so much piano music available at all different levels, perhaps one way of approaching it is to try a bunch of different pieces, and continue with the ones that are most interesting.

Stub

Pallas But I've felt self-conscious about what's on my dream list, because my first teacher said my expectations were too high for her, and then dropped me.

That's just plain awful. On the other hand, admitting the expectations were to too high for her to teach required some self-knowledge and brutal honesty on her part. All in all, you're better off with a teacher who doesn't have those kinds of restrictions (like your current teacher). I also think that it was probably wise for you to keep your dreams to yourself until you and the new teacher got to know each other a little better. You had more time to reflect on your goal/dream pieces and the teacher had more time to assess your potential.

thepianoplayer416

Many struggle with the "beginner mindset'. Of course we need many years of lessons but the process can be fun & engaging than boring & repetitive.

We need to have some expectations how far we can go and what we want to get out of learning an instrument. When my father retired, he wanted to pick up playing the accordion that he hadn't touched for years. As a self-learner he got himself a beginner book with songs like "Mary Had a Little Lamb", "Lightly Row". After a month he quit. He wasn't ready to spend years with a teacher. At the same time he had no expectations how far he could go or the pieces he would be playing.

The 1 thing I find that is common in my family circle is that people who took music lessons tend to stick with the teacher's assigned repertoire. Even after many years of playing, they wouldn't go to a music store or online to find music on their own. Like before starting a new piece they wouldn't read through it on their own. 2 years ago I was at a gathering. 2 people who already reached ABRSM-8 violin & piano played some pieces for us. The parents said that these were the pieces they worked on with their teachers. Many years ago, 2 teens who were in Suzuki music played pieces for us assigned by their teachers to be appropriate for their level. The assigned pieces can be interesting. Even at an intermediate level, you should be able to learn pieces on your own.

The first year I was self-learning and would find pieces at my level. Even after getting a teacher, I'd be playing half the pieces outside the assigned repertoire. When I was growing up, the people around had the attitute learning an instrument means moving up conservatory levels and taking exams every few years. After a decade of playing, my main focus is not fast progress but finding interesting pieces to play while improving techniques along the way. Finding & playing pieces that I like keep me going even without a teacher.

I'm less concerned with people who passed their ABRSM-8 than being able to play some seasonal favorites at a gathering in December.

Simonb

thepianoplayer416

I'm trying to achieve my grade 8 ABRSM now, though because of a house move it's taking a back seat for a while. My Teacher doesn't assign my repertoire. Largely I decide what I want to learn. Though I admit as a complete beginner that generally wouldn't be the case.

In reality most people need a teacher to progress, especially with classical Piano. Without a teacher a lot (I hesitate to say most) of self learners either give-up or never progress beyond a certain point.

Why wouldn't the people who had learnt their grade 8 violin and Piano pieces, or their Suzuki pieces play them? They've made a great deal of effort to reach a pretty high standard (in the case of grade 8) with their pieces, which they more than likely wouldn't have done on their own. I know I could never have passed my grade 7 with distinction last year without a Teacher. I play plenty of other things as well.

Even in non-classical where I'm more self-taught, I've nevertheless had lessons with professional Jazz Pianists and attended numerous workshops and courses (Suffolk Jazz course the last 2 years).

If you're content to play relatively simple pieces to the family at Christmas that's great and I applaud you. Playing in front of anyone takes nerve. However for me that would never be enough. I wanted to play in bands and do gigs from a young age, and more recently started taking Classical playing more seriously again.

This probably all sounds horribly arrogant, but it's not, that is the reality of learning an instrument. I'm not particularly talented, but I have worked very very hard over the decades to get to where I am.

I'm playing a gig tonight with one of the bands I'm in. We'll be doing 21 songs in a Pub. There won't be an Xmas song amongst them!

Cheers

Stub

thepianoplayer416 After a month he quit. He wasn't ready to spend years with a teacher. At the same time he had no expectations how far he could go or the pieces he would be playing.

Rather than saying he had no expectations of how far he could go, I'd say he had no understanding of the time and effort learning to play would entail.

thepianoplayer416 Even after getting a teacher, I'd be playing half the pieces outside the assigned repertoire.

Do you mean playing pieces you've already learned in addition to what you're learning for your lessons? Sure, no reason not to do that. But actually learning new pieces of comparable length and difficulty to what you're learning for your lesson? Who has the time? Or energy? I don't.

thepianoplayer416

Simonb
Coming from a non-musical family, nobody around who took lessons would play during a family gathering. The past few years I've been spending a lot of time away from home with relatives so I don't a lot of time for improving my playing.

It's generally accepted that people wouldn't progress as far without a teacher. Today there is a lot of info online. 3 years ago I met an retired man in his 70s. Started piano barely 1 1/2 yrs ago. Assuming that he had no previous musical background or training, his first piece was Debussy "Clair de Lune". Without a teacher, he relied on online demos for 6 months and was able to play sufficiently despite being under-tempo. At the time the man did not have the financial means to get a teacher so he was happy to be able to play the piece he wanted to learn "by rote".

Someone like myself would show up at a gathering and play a few pieces. I'm not at the level of playing Liszt "Hungarian Rhapsody" but I'm not standing at an intermediate level either. Once I was playing an arrangement of Shostakovich Waltz #2 on a public piano outside a community center. A man walked by and thought that i was a piano teacher. During COVID I was in a city stuck in quarantine. I had a portable keyboard during my 2 weeks isolation and starting learing the Bach transcription of the Marcello Oboe concerto in D - Adagio.

People who made it to ABRSM or RCM (in Canada) level 8 is already very accomplished. At the moment my playing skills isn't at a very high level but I've taken a slightly different path that I didn't anticipate in the beginning. The past few years I've taken orchestra pieces for different instruments and arranged them on computer into playable solo piano or duet pieces with a solo instrument such as violin, flute or oboe with a piano accompaniment.

In a party I don't usually feel the need to play very technical pieces. Once I played mvt 1 of the Bach Italian Concerto in F (about 4 min) from memory. Last year I played a Bach Sinfonia (just under 6 min). And I also played Simon & Garfunkel "Sound of Silence". In the real world (outside the classroom) we'd be playing pieces that are appropriate for the occasion such as a wedding, funeral or Christmas gathering than the pieces learned with a teacher unless they're appropriate. Nothing wrong with playing the teacher's assigned repertoire. In the learning process you keep hearing a student playing the same pieces including Beethoven "Fur Elise", Mozart "Sonata in C", Bach "Prelude in C", etc. My repertoire isn't limited to the teacher's assigned pieces.

"Variety is the spice of life"...

Simonb

Stub Do you mean playing pieces you've already learned in addition to what you're learning for your lessons? Sure, no reason not to do that. But actually learning new pieces of comparable length and difficulty to what you're learning for your lesson? Who has the time? Or energy? I don't.

Hi Stub

That's a very good point.
In my case I'm lucky, I managed to retire at a relatively young age.

Cheers

Stub

Simonb Hi Stub

That's a very good point.
In my case I'm lucky, I managed to retire at a relatively young age.

Same here, but I already spend about 2 hours a day practicing and that would mean adding another 2 hours if I spent half my time on non-lesson material. While in theory I have the time to do that, in practice (no pun intended!) I have other things I also enjoy spending my time and energy on (and some things I don't enjoy spending my time and energy on, but I have to whether I want to or not).

Please note that I'm talking about pieces that are at a similar difficulty and length as the pieces for my lessons. Sightreading practice or going back to easier (and probably shorter) pieces is probably a good thing. I rarely do it, probably because I'm putting all my time and energy into the pieces for my lesson. I want to have some progress to show at my next lesson, so my lesson pieces are what I work on during the week. It's a blessing and a curse--I'm getting to learn a lot of nice pieces and my teacher is constantly challenging me (not literally) to improve, but I don't have time to mess around at the piano very much. Other people do, and more power to them!

candela

Pallas I think it's probably very, very difficult to be a piano teacher. You have some students who don't care enough to do well, but also students who care so much that they get in their own way (that's me in a nutshell).

That could be why it is also difficult to be a student. Even among students who care deeply about learning, we all learn somewhat differently and not all teachers are able to cater to all learning styles (as seen in the example with your first teacher). Your second teacher seems great in trying to nudge you into seeing the learning process from another, less attached, point of view, whether you end up taking that to heart or perhaps find out that it's not exactly what works for you after all.

I find that learning difficult things, like piano playing, can also force and help us to get know ourselves better. To my understanding some researchers claim that where we stand on a scale from goal to process driven learning styles are inherent and relatively fixed, others that there is significant room for flexibility and change. Either way, it's good to be aware of the existing variety even as adult students and recognise where the teacher is coming from. Nobody nowadays seems to claim that people are either 100% goal driven or 100% autotelic so to some extent we can not only change external things like methods / repertoire and teachers but also our internal approaches. I'm grappling a bit with this as well – how much should we work within our current comfort zone and how much should we try to change? I'm mainly process driven myself, which many probably would deem lucky. As a child, I never had to be told to go practice my instrument or do my homework, I just did and usually enjoyed it and could immerse myself in the process. But there is also something appealing about having dream pieces, so that by the time we are able to play them we can look back and remember that once we thought these were extremely difficult pieces, almost unattainable. I'm not in that camp and don't have a singe dream piece for far into the future. Maybe I should?

Anyway, very interesting to follow this discussion and hear others' experiences!