"Success" = Don't Compare, Don't Quit

Pallas · 2024-12-10T17:10:26+00:00

I'm back from vacation and trying to find a way to entertain myself while stuffing steel wool into the mouse holes in my ancient house, to disinvite the rode...

Stub

thepianoplayer416 After a month he quit. He wasn't ready to spend years with a teacher. At the same time he had no expectations how far he could go or the pieces he would be playing.

Rather than saying he had no expectations of how far he could go, I'd say he had no understanding of the time and effort learning to play would entail.

thepianoplayer416 Even after getting a teacher, I'd be playing half the pieces outside the assigned repertoire.

Do you mean playing pieces you've already learned in addition to what you're learning for your lessons? Sure, no reason not to do that. But actually learning new pieces of comparable length and difficulty to what you're learning for your lesson? Who has the time? Or energy? I don't.

Simonb

Stub Do you mean playing pieces you've already learned in addition to what you're learning for your lessons? Sure, no reason not to do that. But actually learning new pieces of comparable length and difficulty to what you're learning for your lesson? Who has the time? Or energy? I don't.

Hi Stub

That's a very good point.
In my case I'm lucky, I managed to retire at a relatively young age.

Cheers

Stub

Simonb Hi Stub

That's a very good point.
In my case I'm lucky, I managed to retire at a relatively young age.

Same here, but I already spend about 2 hours a day practicing and that would mean adding another 2 hours if I spent half my time on non-lesson material. While in theory I have the time to do that, in practice (no pun intended!) I have other things I also enjoy spending my time and energy on (and some things I don't enjoy spending my time and energy on, but I have to whether I want to or not).

Please note that I'm talking about pieces that are at a similar difficulty and length as the pieces for my lessons. Sightreading practice or going back to easier (and probably shorter) pieces is probably a good thing. I rarely do it, probably because I'm putting all my time and energy into the pieces for my lesson. I want to have some progress to show at my next lesson, so my lesson pieces are what I work on during the week. It's a blessing and a curse--I'm getting to learn a lot of nice pieces and my teacher is constantly challenging me (not literally) to improve, but I don't have time to mess around at the piano very much. Other people do, and more power to them!

candela

Pallas I think it's probably very, very difficult to be a piano teacher. You have some students who don't care enough to do well, but also students who care so much that they get in their own way (that's me in a nutshell).

That could be why it is also difficult to be a student. Even among students who care deeply about learning, we all learn somewhat differently and not all teachers are able to cater to all learning styles (as seen in the example with your first teacher). Your second teacher seems great in trying to nudge you into seeing the learning process from another, less attached, point of view, whether you end up taking that to heart or perhaps find out that it's not exactly what works for you after all.

I find that learning difficult things, like piano playing, can also force and help us to get know ourselves better. To my understanding some researchers claim that where we stand on a scale from goal to process driven learning styles are inherent and relatively fixed, others that there is significant room for flexibility and change. Either way, it's good to be aware of the existing variety even as adult students and recognise where the teacher is coming from. Nobody nowadays seems to claim that people are either 100% goal driven or 100% autotelic so to some extent we can not only change external things like methods / repertoire and teachers but also our internal approaches. I'm grappling a bit with this as well – how much should we work within our current comfort zone and how much should we try to change? I'm mainly process driven myself, which many probably would deem lucky. As a child, I never had to be told to go practice my instrument or do my homework, I just did and usually enjoyed it and could immerse myself in the process. But there is also something appealing about having dream pieces, so that by the time we are able to play them we can look back and remember that once we thought these were extremely difficult pieces, almost unattainable. I'm not in that camp and don't have a singe dream piece for far into the future. Maybe I should?

Anyway, very interesting to follow this discussion and hear others' experiences!

iternabe

A couple of thoughts:

On perseverance, I find what works for me so far is just to make sure I get my fingers on the keys every day. It does not matter how long or what I intend to play. The biggest hurdle seems to be just to get over to the piano and sit down. On days when I am not as motivated, I find once I sit down, start with some scales, often end up practicing as long or even longer than my more motivated days. The act of playing focuses my mind and piques my interest more than anything else.

On dream pieces, I don't have any. I just wait for what comes in my level. However, during my level one study, there is one piece that does feel a little more special to me. I also ended up spending disproportionally more time on that piece than all of the other ones. Looking back, that time spent feel quite inefficient. The reason is the left hand pattern involved is not something I was ready for. But for the love of the piece, I am driven to "master" the left hand - in retrospect, the approach did not work well, I could not "master" the technique just by repetition. The technique is more likely a number of small, discrete abilities that's better developed individually and then put together. This, to me, is the potential trap of trying pieces too far beyond my ability. I do have many pieces that I love to listen. At the same time, I am accepting that my knowledge is still so limited that I have no idea what's involved to make those piece sound as good as they should.

Player1

When you cut through all the noise, the reason one student continues, and one doesn't, is that some people are goal oriented and when those goals stop coming, they seek other mountains to climb. Meanwhile, other people are content to work every day at small successes which don't necessarily sparkle that much.

In the end it comes down to basic personality traits. The tragedy is that almost all teachers will choose the student who is easy to teach and then blame the student who drops out for the teacher's failure to keep them involved in the learning process.

Simonb

Pallas

Hi Pallas

I'm with you on lack of RAM!

My on-going house move has affected my practising badly. I should be working on 4 pieces for the ABRSM grade 8 exam, and a few other things for a potential diploma, but at present everything is on hold because my house move has become a bit of a nightmare.

Normally the rest of my time is spent on non-classical. I've recently been asked to play Piano on Bohemian Rhapsody for a performance next year, so I've been spending a lot of time trying to put together a decent arrangement of that.

Cheers

keystring

Animisha I listened to the beginning of the video, with the fictional students Robert and John. I got irritated, because if you got yourself an enthusiastic music-lover teen who begs his parents for piano lessons, you are doing something very wrong as a teacher if you lose that students within ten weeks. ......

My impression is that she was giving some very simple common ideas. 1. The person with talent, free time, experience with other instruments, a fantastic piano will not necessarily do better than persons without those advantages. Here I think she is addressing everyone worrying they'll fail because they "don't have talent" etc. down the list. It's a bit overkill because in her examples, anyone with one of those advantages is the one who fails. 2. The (oft-repeated) mantra of don't run before you walk, steps etc. That would be the purpose.

I got turned off at the cello student part. If that fictitious student plays cello, had three years of lessons, and is in an orchestra, then by golly, you'd think she knows how to practice properly already! She'd not behave as described. Not considered is that someone who comes from another instrument needs to have that addressed by the teacher. Dynamics and articulation are created with the bow: piano hands do both notes and dynamics. A note must be continuously produced in one instrument, not the other. .......... The kid who loves jazz and was enthusiastic: were the fictitious lessons geared toward his interest? Are we going lockstep along a method book regardless of the student?

There is some truth to the points raised, but it's simplistic and leaves other things out. If it is encouraging to those who feel inferior / less likely to succeed than people with certain advantages, that part is a good message.

Stub

Pallas keystring There is some truth to the points raised, but it's simplistic and leaves other things out. If it is encouraging to those who feel inferior / less likely to succeed than people with certain advantages, that part is a good message.

Some of us need a gentle and nuanced tap on the shoulder to get a point. Others, me included, need a simple but emphatic brick to the head.😝

I think of videos such as this one as similar to a parable. A parable is a story. It didn't really happen. It's meant to illustrate some main point and shouldn't be overinterpreted--which parables often are. I see the main point of the video as not giving up. You don't have to have a whole lot of other things, but you do need perseverance.

Sophia

How's this for a summary?

Sophia

Heh, well, I am living proof that quitting is a survivable option, because I have done it at least a few times now. This time it seems that continuing is the option that makes me happier than quitting sooo... yeah. That's where where it's at.

I'll be playing until that changes - though naturally my happiness level fluctuates from day to day, even from piece to piece because as long as I'm committed to going through the Alfred method book, I have to accept the fact that some pieces are going to be exceptionally dire. At least I'm now at a stage where it's more forgivable to skip/skimp over some pieces. And the blues course is a nice distraction too.

I have to say though that I found that video of "who will fail" particularly grating because I hardly agreed with any of her examples. Plus I don't think that quitting equals failing - that is almost insulting because there is no shame in finding out that one is not enjoying a certain hobby.

I'm probably thinking too deeply about this whole thing, because of course I agree with the bullet points of it not being a race, not a competition, and that it's important to enjoy what you're doing. I just don't agree that not quitting is necessarily the key to either success or happiness... I'd say that depends entirely on the person.

Ok this got kinda deep all of a sudden 😃 If you need a pep talk about not quitting, here is mine: don't quit. Piano is fun! And sooo rewarding. And it beats counting geraniums or brainlessly consuming soap operas on tv 😃 So. Don't quit!

candela

Sophia I am living proof that quitting is a survivable option, because I have done it at least a few times now.

I've quit several hobbies as well and started others throughout life. I also took a more than 15 year hiatus from the clarinet, more due to life changes than having grown tired of it. But then I found out back in my thirties that I missed it too much so like you I know that restarting is also an option.

candela

Pallas Anyone who is happy every day seems suspicious to me.

I try to only pose the question of happiness with prior choices infrequently. If I would second guess myself and judge all decisions made by my previous self on a daily basis I would
1) not get much done
and
2)feel less free and not enjoy life as much.

Just sticking to the plan until it's not working for you any more takes away some stress.

Sophia

Yup... exactly. I "quit" guitar twice as well, but any time anyone asks if I gave up on it, my usual reply is that I'm on an extended hiatus, but will go back to it eventually. Once I miss it enough, I will start again, as I did with piano. Other hobbies, let's say something like stamp collecting, I left behind me several decades ago and I know for a fact I'll never be back at it. That doesn't mean I was/am a failure at stamp collecting (ok I totally was, but that's beside the point), it just means I no longer found joy in it. I see no reason to shame anyone for quitting what they're not enjoying (which is what the word "fail" implies).

This woman is basically screaming a message that quitting equals failing, and especially considering that I agree on the "be kind to yourself" message, I find that a more than a little harsh.

ShiroKuro

Sophia I see no reason to shame anyone for quitting what they're not enjoying (which is what the word "fail" implies).

I agree with this! Life is short, in our hobby time, should all be doing what we love.

I do think there are people who quit piano but wish they were still playing, I mean, people say that to me all the time when they learn that I play piano. The question for those situations is, do they really want to play piano? Or is it the idea of piano that appeals to them? For example, the dream of being able to sit down and just play like a pro?

The people who can continue are the people who can enjoy what they’re doing at the piano today. (I’m pretty sure this comment was made in this thread somewhere, maybe not, but it’s a common enough idea). That doesn’t mean you have to love every minute of it, and it’s ok to not love or enjoy some parts of it, and have some of that “delayed gratification” as part of the motivation.

I used to do aikido (a Japanese martial art). I did it for years in the states, and then continued after I moved to Japan. (That’s actually how I met my spouse). I advanced to second degree black belt, I sometimes taught, it was a pretty big part of my life. I started playing piano much later than I started aikido.

But at some point, on my way out to the dojo, I found myself thinking that I’d rather stay home and play my piano. As most of us, I also work full time, so my hobby time is limited. I gradually started staying home more and more often, and eventually stopped going to aikido completely.

Quitting did not mean I failed. It meant I figured out how I wanted to spend my time, and that’s ok.

But if I had truly wanted to continue aikido, or if someone truly wanted to continue piano, then it’s fine to give advice about how to make that possible. I don’t think the woman in the video is trying to shame anyone, but there is an awful lot of pressure these days to “optimize” your life, to incorporate life hacks so you can do more, be more, etc. And that can be a little bit much sometimes…

candela

Quitting something that we realize no longer adds anything positive to life is a sign of wisdom and discernment in my book.

Quitting because we judge ourselves too harshly is not the same, though.

It's funny. I don't get discouraged by playing music ~~badly~~ like a beginner. The moment the music is played it's gone from existence and while it existed it was only a necessary step for learning and growth. However I've also tried to cultivate drawing and painting for some shorter stints but they never last. The "failures" in that instance are so tangible. The stack of sheets "wasted" on producing mediocre art lures out the critic in me and kills the joy. That's despite that I probably have somewhat more inborn talent for drawing than music, although neither is really my strength.

Sophia

candela It's funny. I don't get discouraged by playing music badly like a beginner.

Same here. In fact I embrace it and allow my inner child to thoroughly enjoy those simple tunes. I knew from a very young age that my aspirations were not to be a professional musician. I saw enough of that around me all day long and it wasn't the life for me. Luckily I was allowed that choice, which means I feel no resentment towards any instrument... and right now I'm loving the journey, wherever it takes me remains to be seen. As long as it remains fun, I keep at it!

Pallas And I'm talking to you, Mr. High School Drama Teacher who called my enlisting into the Army a "huge waste of potential." Kiss my b*tt, Sir.

High Five! Let me direct a similar message to my kindergarten teacher, who smugly informed my parents (after hearing my singing in class) that I'd never be a Maria Callas. Phooey to you, Ms Whatever-Your-Name-Was!

MandM

The one slide that caught my attention was where she showed the succeed or fail "x-factor":

When I listened to it, I thought yes, sure it's like you can finish the marathon, just don't stop running. You can swim across that lake, just don't stop swimming. You can climb that mountain, just don't stop climbing. So, in a way this "x-factor" sounded to me a bit obvious.

I think one has to look a little deeper to understand why is someone choosing to stop playing piano/keyboard. Was it because of unrealistic expectations, maybe too much comparing with more proficient players, too many hobbies, etc.

I also understand that if one chooses to stop playing because playing piano just does not give any joy any longer, then that is not necessarily a failure. It may actually be good, it depends on the unique situation.

The other thing that comes to mind is that quitting is sometimes not quitting completely. May be it is just a temporary break and one discovers piano again sometime in the future. That can also happen.

In summary I think that reasons for stopping to play piano can be fairly diverse as the circumstances of each person are unique.

Sophia

Now where is that ❤️ reaction emoji when you need it 🥰

thepianoplayer416

Pallas
I didn't start piano at a young age. Some people are already at an advance level in high school when I started violin (as a beginner of course). My point is that I wouldn't compare myself to other people and just make progress at my own pace. Be happy playing the pieces I enjoy. Otherwise I wouldn't be starting piano at 40+ because it's already too late.

Coming from a non-musical family, I find there is a big difference in attitute between my musical friends who sing in a church choir and relatives who took music lessons. On the weekend I'll be attending 1 gathering with a group of musicians. People would sing holiday tunes or play instruments. The week after a gathering with relatives where people in the group took piano lessons and some passed conservatory levels. There is a piano and a DP in the house but at this social gathering nobody would volunteer to play a song. I'm not saying anybody isn't musical or has no talent for music but can't judge their abilities without hearing him/her play.

thepianoplayer416

Simonb
Coming from a non-musical family, nobody around who took lessons would play during a family gathering. The past few years I've been spending a lot of time away from home with relatives so I don't a lot of time for improving my playing.

It's generally accepted that people wouldn't progress as far without a teacher. Today there is a lot of info online. 3 years ago I met an retired man in his 70s. Started piano barely 1 1/2 yrs ago. Assuming that he had no previous musical background or training, his first piece was Debussy "Clair de Lune". Without a teacher, he relied on online demos for 6 months and was able to play sufficiently despite being under-tempo. At the time the man did not have the financial means to get a teacher so he was happy to be able to play the piece he wanted to learn "by rote".

Someone like myself would show up at a gathering and play a few pieces. I'm not at the level of playing Liszt "Hungarian Rhapsody" but I'm not standing at an intermediate level either. Once I was playing an arrangement of Shostakovich Waltz #2 on a public piano outside a community center. A man walked by and thought that i was a piano teacher. During COVID I was in a city stuck in quarantine. I had a portable keyboard during my 2 weeks isolation and starting learing the Bach transcription of the Marcello Oboe concerto in D - Adagio.

People who made it to ABRSM or RCM (in Canada) level 8 is already very accomplished. At the moment my playing skills isn't at a very high level but I've taken a slightly different path that I didn't anticipate in the beginning. The past few years I've taken orchestra pieces for different instruments and arranged them on computer into playable solo piano or duet pieces with a solo instrument such as violin, flute or oboe with a piano accompaniment.

In a party I don't usually feel the need to play very technical pieces. Once I played mvt 1 of the Bach Italian Concerto in F (about 4 min) from memory. Last year I played a Bach Sinfonia (just under 6 min). And I also played Simon & Garfunkel "Sound of Silence". In the real world (outside the classroom) we'd be playing pieces that are appropriate for the occasion such as a wedding, funeral or Christmas gathering than the pieces learned with a teacher unless they're appropriate. Nothing wrong with playing the teacher's assigned repertoire. In the learning process you keep hearing a student playing the same pieces including Beethoven "Fur Elise", Mozart "Sonata in C", Bach "Prelude in C", etc. My repertoire isn't limited to the teacher's assigned pieces.

"Variety is the spice of life"...

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