I've always been against the idea of learning scales from a scale book. I guess I didn't really see the point. All scales are the same, all chords are the same, on the chromatic scale. I might as well just pick things up organically?

However, my teacher wants to start a scale book and so I'm going to do it anyway.

I'm starting this book. It's 1 of 11. 🤯

Molly Gebrian says this will help with deeper encoding and memory chunking, so perhaps it won't be a waste of time?

The other reason I've made peace with this is that MG provided the insight that it's not only OK but it can be quite beneficial to work on a bunch of different things rather than spending all my practice time on one thing.

I've done that a lot where I focus exclusively on a single piece of music because that was my priority, and after all that investment, everything falls apart in the performance anyway. Now, I've come to terms with the fact that focused work + shifting my attention to other areas in a practice session isn't such a bad thing.

--
Beach L168, Wish, baCh, WOW Petrof, Fake Steinway, VS
TIME

    navindra I've always been against the idea of learning scales from a scale book. I guess I didn't really see the point.

    Fingering.

      I’m curious about how this book is different — and why there are 8 levels — compared to something like the Alfred’s Complete Scales book (by Palmer, a lot of people here and at PW have this book, including me).

      Alfred’s book has two pages for every scale, let me post a screen grab so you can see a sample:

      @navindra is the Snell book significantly different?

        If you need a book for scale fingering you probably missed the point of scale fingering.

        You can use C Major fingering for F, G, D and A Majors because it's easier to remember but for ergonomic fingering:-
        1) in the right hand (except in C Major) the fourth finger goes on A#/Bb when present in the key or the last black key in the key signature.
        2) in the left hand (except in C Major) the fourth finger goes on F#/Gb when present in the key or the last black key in the key signature.

        Better still, try using the fourth finger of each hand on all seven scale tones in turn and see which is most comfortable for you. If you forget, it's easy to work it out again.

        Arpeggios follow a similar method.

        The book might be useful for finger exercises.

          RFox If you need a book for scale fingering you probably missed the point of scale fingering.

          I want to gently disagree. For one thing, this statement is pretty unfair to beginners. I’m guessing you don’t mean it this way, but it sounds like you’re saying “if you need help, there’s something wrong with you.”

          Also, especially for more beginning, and even intermediate, pianists, fingering for some of the scales isn’t necessarily intuitive. Fingering is important enough that it’s crucial not to leave it to chance, because we wouldn’t want someone to memorize incorrect fingering. Certainly some people can be introduced to the principles of fingerings, work on one or two scales, and then figure out the rest on their own, but most people need a little more guidance than that.

          ETA: and scales books are not just for fingering, good ones have arps, cadences, contrary motion etc.

          Which is all to say, scales books definitely have their place as a pedagogical tool.

            RFox If you need a book for scale fingering you probably missed the point of scale fingering.

            Beginner here. Had I not have the Alfred book, I’d probably use the same fingering of the major scale for its relative minor scale. I’d also have difficulty figuring out the the fingering of keys that starts on a black key. And for arpeggios, I’d probably use the same fingering for all inversions.

              As I understand scales (and arpeggio) fingerings are essential. I spend lots of time on scales. They are designed/written for increasing efficiency and speed (!!) in passages. As for working on different things, I have the opposite issue, I work on far too many diff. things, scales, arp., etc, hanon now and then, and too many different pieces at once. I try to plan and divide practice time wisely. It's great you have a teacher!

              ShiroKuro, yes, it does seem unfair to beginners, the point is taken and I intended no slight but I really don't think scales are for beginners because the last thing you want to be building into your scale technique is beginner technique.

              You should know the structure of the scales for the keys used in pieces you'll likely be playing but scale practise tends to be more drill-like and repetitive, especially with beginners who mistakenly use them for building finger technique. That's not their purpose.

              Scale fingering is, or should be, based on principles that don't need a book listing all the scales out. Cover the principles, they're very brief, then learn the starting finger for each scale and which tone to use the fourth finger on. Trial and error shouldn't take long to find out these for each key.

              Arpeggios work using similar principles. I did mention that the finger exercises might be of some worth.

              The ABRSM test only a few scales and arpeggios per grade. You really shouldn't need a book for that. Listing out the fingerings makes learning the principles unnecessary but it's the principles that need to be learnt; it's the principles that are useful for working out fingering in pieces.

              I also see in the post before mine - that I didn't see when I posted - that you list G Major with the left hand fingering showing 4th finger on A. It should also list the alternative of 4th finger on F#. That's the sort of issue that I think needs early resolution.

              Iternabe, if you mean which finger to use on which key as opposed to which finger to start on then you might have gained an insight when comparing, say, G Major and its relative E Minor that I noted above. G Major may be better played starting on 3 in the LH as is used in E Minor. B Minor LH fingering is also better for D Major.

              One is easier to learn and remember without having to cover principles and the other is based on a principle that is better learnt than the fingering itself, which can be worked out quickly.

              I do apologise for any unintended hurt.

                Over the years, I have scaled down my work on scales. Having had a teacher for more than two years who never asked about scales contributed. Sometimes, when I want a break from my pieces, I play a couple of scales. Never scales with more than three accidentals, and minor scales only harmonic. Never contrary scales, only parallel ones.

                Once upon a time it was good for me to learn these scales, but I really don't see the point to rehearse them over and over again. And I also don't see the point of torturing myself with scales in keys that I don't even play.
                However, if a piece is in a key with more than three accidentals, I do check that scale, and play I IV I V I, and I IV I V7 I, just to get a feeling for the sound.

                *
                ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                  RFox ShiroKuro, yes, it does seem unfair to beginners, the point is taken and I intended no slight

                  Thank you!

                  but I really don't think scales are for beginners because the last thing you want to be building into your scale technique is beginner technique.

                  This is interesting (the idea that scales aren't for beginners), I wonder how many teachers would agree with you.

                  Your other point, about not embedding "beginner technique," could be said about almost anything we do at the piano. IMO, that's why it's important for people to work with a teacher (esp. beginners, but also players who are beyond the beginning levels).

                  I know a lot of people have various restrictions (whether time, money, location, etc.) that means they can't work one-on-one with a teacher, so I know my opinion here about the importance of teachers isn't necessarily fair or realistic for many. Also, I have almost always had a teacher, and I have one right now (even though I've been playing for 25 years now), so I know I'm biased by my own experience there. /threaddrift

                  Back to the topic at hand, I am also biased by my own experience, which is that I incorporated scales into my practice routine from a very early stage -- but again, I was working with a teacher. These days I almost never play them, despite believing they're valuable. 😅

                    Animisha Never contrary scales, only parallel ones.

                    I always loved playing scales in contrary motion! To me, that was the best part! 😃

                      Another beginner perspective here. After hearing about scales practice, I've bought the Alfred book and started to figure out two octaves, hands together scales. I found them strangely enjoyable. I was doing scales (and Hanon) in my breaks etc. Without a metronome. With my self-thought technique. Getting faster and faster. And... I got pain in my hands 🙁.

                      Then I thought I should learn proper technique first, before collecting more and more injuries . Subscribed Entrada (after a recommendation in this forum). To my surprise they put the scale technique in advanced section, after arpeggios, trills, octaves etc.! 🤯 So I put scales (and Hanon) on hold until I improve my technique a bit more.

                        hebele Entrada

                        Does this involve a teacher looking at your playing (either in real time or on video) and giving you feedback that's targeted at/for you?

                            ShiroKuro no feedback. I don't think they offer any. I know a teacher would be the solution. But I cannot make the time for face to face sessions for now. And online services feel like a poor substitute.

                              @hebele if you are having pain, there's probably something in your technique, the way you're holding your hands/wrists/arms that is causing you trouble. If you don't get it corrected, it may get worse.

                              I don't mean to sound alarmist, but that would be my concern.

                              A service like Entrada is not likely to help you figure out what you're doing wrong.

                              Perhaps you could find someone who you could meet with once a month? Also, regarding online services, there are two models that might benefit you. One is where you do a live, real-time lesson. This is the best online scenario, because you can get immediate feedback and easily ask questions etc. The other model is where you send in a video and get feedback on it. This is not as good as real-time, but still would get you some feedback that's geared to you specifically.

                              I highly recommend you pursue one of these options, esp. if you're having pain.

                                ShiroKuro thanks for the concern. I don't have pain anymore. And I am pretty sure it was because I was too enthusiastic and careless about scales/Hanon exercises. I am much more cautious now.

                                  Ahh, ok, if your pain is gone, that is a good sign!!

                                  Pallas The last thing I want to do is say something that seems to lack compassion.

                                  I don't think you ever do, you are always kind! 🙂

                                    RFox Scale fingering is, or should be, based on principles that don't need a book listing all the scales out. Cover the principles, they're very brief, then learn the starting finger for each scale and which tone to use the fourth finger on.

                                    I disagree. While I agree that principles are the way to go when learning to play scales and can result in quicker memorization, there are multiple possible scale fingerings and the reason why we have standard fingerings is largely because of convention and not because they are the logically most efficient way to play them. That is, someone not exposed to standard fingerings will not necessarily come up with them independently.

                                    See bernhard's comment here. He suggests playing F major LH scales 3214321: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756

                                    Likewise, why wouldn't you play a C major scale 12341234? After all, it's likely quicker that way.

                                    You could also play a C chromatic scale 123412345123

                                    Given that there are many possibilities, it makes sense for a beginner to learn the standard, conventional fingering because it's not guaranteed they will come to the same conclusion otherwise.

                                        ranjit someone not exposed to standard fingerings will not necessarily come up with them independently.

                                        Exactly!

                                        And, even if any given pianist changes fingerings later, or (of course) makes alterations that fit some specific musical context, it's very important to learn the standard fingering. That has pedagogical value in and of itself.

                                        So, back to @RFox 's earlier comment about the fingering listed on the page I uploaded -- I'm not going to argue with anyone about those fingerings (for one thing, I'm not in front of a piano right now). But those are established, accepted fingerings and learning them will be of value.